Is MH just an echo chamber on FWR?

[NarcissasMumintheDoghouse]

Article in the New Statesman shows women's rights not a voter priority (and elsewhere in the publication they predict Labour would get more votes that the Tories).
sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/03/sotn-what-issues-matter-most-to-voters/

So, as a hypothetical scenario, and to give an example of wht single sex spaces are needed. A woman who has been raped and beaten and is therefore scared of male bodied people goes to a rape crisis centre. This is a women’s only centre. Whilst there James Wallis walks in. He has also been raped. There Is rape crisis centre for transpeople in the same city Would the rape crisis centre be reasonable in your view to tell James to use that service or should the woman suffer more trauma by having to cope with a male body in what should be a safe space

Here we go again. “You know this”, no I do not “know this”, I simply do not agree with you.

Why can’t we have gender neutral spaces in India? Well, in an ideal world, it would work everywhere, but some countries are still fighting for basic rights that western women take for granted here in the UK and a different approach would be needed. Trans people in such countries are even more at risk than they are here and largely unable to be ‘out’, so it will take far longer to get to a point of gender neutrality in countries with deeply entrenched levels of misogyny.

Going back to earlier points on religion, I find it something of an interesting dissonance that - I assume - most modern feminists would disapprove of the way, say, Saudi Arabia is run. It’s undeniably misogynist and dangerous for women, under the guise of religion. Yet when trans issues are involved it suddenly becomes fine to honour such beliefs.

This is what I mean when I say religion should not be used to make regressive public policies. Many Muslims agree in SA it’s an extreme interpretation of Islam. The UK should be a secular country with its policies not influenced by religious teachings. That does not equate to religious women being excluded, because as I keep saying, exemptions and adjustments should be provided, as should the option of individual private spaces for people who want that, irrespective of religion. People are of course free to believe and worship however they see fit, dress however they believe best fits their faith, and conduct their lives in line with their beliefs without harassment, judgement or prejudice. Trans women using female spaces will not stop this - the vast majority of female spaces DO include private individual spaces that don’t necessitate anyone seeing anyone else in a state of undress.

@Crcohetmonster

So, as a hypothetical scenario, and to give an example of wht single sex spaces are needed. A woman who has been raped and beaten and is therefore scared of male bodied people goes to a rape crisis centre. This is a women’s only centre. Whilst there James Wallis walks in. He has also been raped. There Is rape crisis centre for transpeople in the same city Would the rape crisis centre be reasonable in your view to tell James to use that service or should the woman suffer more trauma by having to cope with a male body in what should be a safe space

In this hypothetical scenario I think it would be reasonable to direct James to the trans rape service. If a specialist service for trans people exists I think this would be the preferred option.

I think you might ask what should happen if there is no trans service, just a women’s service. I personally would look to find a solution that could help everyone - could James or the woman access one to one support or be signposted to another service? Could phone or video support be offered so they didn’t have to be in the same room?

So Ted is saying we can't have mixed sex spaces in India because women there don't have basic rights, like the right to single sex spaces. So what we need to do in the UK is take away women's rights, like the right to single sex spaces, so that we can have mixed sex spaces.

Brilliant.

Well, the example you used that is 'bad' is clearly something that is allowed in UK. Why on earth are you bringing in SA, is it because it's been shown you don't understand how protected characteristics work, in Uk.

As for India, it's either an amazing example of acceptance of 'hijra' culture, or really awfully transphobic, can you people choose one and stick to it, rather than flip-flop on this ?

So in that case if most spaces are private individual spaces transwomen will have no problem using male facilities then will they? But India does have a third gender option as we are constantly told by the TRA. The Hijra are considered neither make or female and in India, especially southern India, individuals are allowed SRS for free in government hospitals. So you can’t really say transpeople are in more danger in India. Lesbians yes. Women are killed for even a rumour of a same sex relationship and in many cases it’s not even counted as a crime.

Why can't stonewall fund rape/victim support services for transpeople? There should be dedicated funds for that. I would totally donate to a fundraiser for something like that.

If male people use services for females, it makes it impossible for many females to use those services. It's just not fair, and makes no sense.

Exactly @beastlyslumber. Why, if transpeople are so marginalised and vulnerable, have stonewall not ploughed funds into trans health and crisis centres. It’s almost like it’s not about trans rights but dismantling women’s rights

And there are rape crisis services across the country where there are no single sex services. One service user asked for a single sex group in addition to the mixed sex women's group, the mixed sex men's group and the group specifically tailored for those who are trans or non binary. This was refused, meaning women who needed a single sex service were excluded. This is not an isolated example.

In this actual scenario, there is no single sex group. What do you propose that women affected by this do?

@AlisonDonut

If a trans woman is at work, and starts to have symptoms of a heart attack, Ted - would you want us to call an ambulance or give them a Rennie?

Ted...still interested in this practical example.

What should a first aider do if this situation happened at work?

It is all very well saying that you believe anything anyone tells you and taking it as fact but in the real world of real life...

Yes, it’s almost as if some people are totally oblivious to the fact that humans are capable of lying and that’s why safeguarding exists. We all know most adults are law abiding and would never hat, children, but we don’t let random adults wander round schools do we? Is this safeguarding or bigotry against adults?

You seem to be using the terms sex and gender interchangeably Ted. I don't know if that's deliberate or you really don't understand the difference.

I feel that the best way to dismantle repressive and oppressive gender stereotypes is to just try and do away with the idea of gender altogether

I agree. But then you say:

this includes normalising things like bodies, non-sexual nudity where appropriate (I don’t think we should all start being naturists or go out of our way to be nude for the sake of it) and dismantling the perception that a sexual current, or danger, or connection, or power imbalance, or whatever you want to call it, between men and women means they must be segregated.

This is now about sex, not gender. But you can't just do away with sex segregation while men are still raping women. According to the ONS over 3% of women were raped or sexually assaulted in 2020 (in nearly all cases by men).

I will caveat this by saying a gender-free utopia is obviously a very western-centric idea and not applicable to countries where there aren’t even adequate facilities for women to begin with, such as India, where outdoor toileting facilities do present a very real danger to women.

Why is that? What is different about Indian men and women which means that mixed sex toilets are dangerous for women there but not for women in the UK?

@OldCrone

You seem to be using the terms sex and gender interchangeably Ted. I don't know if that's deliberate or you really don't understand the difference.

I feel that the best way to dismantle repressive and oppressive gender stereotypes is to just try and do away with the idea of gender altogether

I agree. But then you say:

this includes normalising things like bodies, non-sexual nudity where appropriate (I don’t think we should all start being naturists or go out of our way to be nude for the sake of it) and dismantling the perception that a sexual current, or danger, or connection, or power imbalance, or whatever you want to call it, between men and women means they must be segregated.

This is now about sex, not gender. But you can't just do away with sex segregation while men are still raping women. According to the ONS over 3% of women were raped or sexually assaulted in 2020 (in nearly all cases by men).

I will caveat this by saying a gender-free utopia is obviously a very western-centric idea and not applicable to countries where there aren’t even adequate facilities for women to begin with, such as India, where outdoor toileting facilities do present a very real danger to women.

Why is that? What is different about Indian men and women which means that mixed sex toilets are dangerous for women there but not for women in the UK?

There is nothing inherently different about Indian men by virtue of them being Indian, but on the whole in the UK gangs of men don’t tend to rape women in broad daylight and this be seen by some as an acceptable part of life - I’m thinking of the incident of the student on a train from some years ago when I reference this. The culture and ingrained misogyny is different. Trans people are also at risk in India - Indian trans women deserve the same protection and I would advocate for them to be able to access the same services as natal women as they both need protection from men, but when honour killings and rape gangs are in some areas still rife, mixed facilities/gender neutral ones open to natal men as well are not the immediate priority. I don’t believe we face these issues on the same scale in the UK, but I don’t believe Indian trans women are the issue (or trans women in any society where particularly regressive attitudes towards women exist in some regions) again, it’s biological men. The western understanding and application of feminism and women’s rights means it’s a different landscape here. In some remote areas in India there aren’t even adequate private spaces for women at all - creating these and making those parts of society safe for biological and trans women alike is the priority. In the UK we do have adequate and safe private spaces.

@beastlyslumber

So Ted is saying we can't have mixed sex spaces in India because women there don't have basic rights, like the right to single sex spaces. So what we need to do in the UK is take away women's rights, like the right to single sex spaces, so that we can have mixed sex spaces.

Brilliant.

Mixed spaces are ones that men can access too. Indian women and trans women could both access the same safe and private spaces. They both need protection from men! There’s space for everyone on the ‘in danger from men’ scale. Also Hijra are not generally regarded in India as being the same as transgender. It’s a third gender altogether.

@beastlyslumber

Why can't stonewall fund rape/victim support services for transpeople? There should be dedicated funds for that. I would totally donate to a fundraiser for something like that.

If male people use services for females, it makes it impossible for many females to use those services. It's just not fair, and makes no sense.

I agree, campaigning for trans-specific services is a good idea and one possible solution and something Stonewall or other trans rights groups could be campaigning for. Some are. The Outside Project for example is working in LGBT-only services for homeless people, including trans.

But a space with women and transwomen in would be mixed sex. So why would some males be allowed in and others not. And if you go by the TRA you would have mixed gender as well as you would have ‘cis’ and trans women. So either way not a single sex or gender space. So any male would be allowed.

As for the question about someone having a heart attack - I wouldn’t really take their trans status into account. If anyone started displaying symptoms that could be a heart attack I would advise them to seek medical help whether this was writhing on the floor with chest pains or subtler symptoms like dizziness or pain the arm.

OK, trans specific services - great. It makes sense to have services tailored towards specific needs.

So why are female single sex services apparently so abhorrent? Why are they relentlessly targeted? Why are they losing funding?

I have noticed you don’t say anything about Indian transmen. Would they be allowed to access make spaces? If transmen are men surely they are men the world over and would therefore have access to all the same rights as Indian men?

@TedMullins

As for the question about someone having a heart attack - I wouldn’t really take their trans status into account. If anyone started displaying symptoms that could be a heart attack I would advise them to seek medical help whether this was writhing on the floor with chest pains or subtler symptoms like dizziness or pain the arm.

Do you know that females don't tend to experience heart attacks like men?

That this led to them not being diagnosed and dying more frequently?

Now at least woman's symptoms are known. Of course if you thought it was a man you would not think they were having a heart attack. The female body person dies again

Nausea ?
Pain in neck and jaw ?

Wasn’t there a transman who lost her baby and nearly died as she told everyone she was a man so no one did any tests for pregnancy or related complications.

It's all right/ I think they are going to run pregnancy tests on every one in future -

they ask men now if they are pregnant apparently (AIBU)

although currently I think that's discrimination as they take the man's word if they say no , but not a womans again if AIBU is to be believed

So they will have to waste time and money giving everyone a pregnancy test before any X-ray

Don't forget my questions @TedMullins