Is MH just an echo chamber on FWR?

[NarcissasMumintheDoghouse]

Article in the New Statesman shows women's rights not a voter priority (and elsewhere in the publication they predict Labour would get more votes that the Tories).
sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/03/sotn-what-issues-matter-most-to-voters/

@LK1972

So to summarise, Ted, you think penises belong in female places, sexual preferences are a matter for discussion and 're-examination' for any suspected bigotry, and religious belief should be disregarded in public policy (and I guess removed as protected characteristics). What else? What about all that harmful free speech, hey, do you have further suggestions? Maybe couple of more protected characteristics for culling?

No, I did not say it should be removed as a protected characteristic. You've just made that up. If "free speech" is a euphemism for hate speech then yes, there are already laws for that.

The part where I said private facilities should be available on request is being repeatedly ignored

So you're in favour of male transgender people requesting private facilities if they don't want to share with other male people? That sounds reasonable. What isn't reasonable is the suggestion that they are somehow entitled to use female facilities just because they have a 'feeling' that they are women (despite all evidence to the contrary).

@Crcohetmonster

So can I just clarify *@TedMullins* you are a feminist but you believe the rights and feelings of females should be put aside fir males? Women of faith , homosexual women or traumatised women do not matter as much as males. Sorry but you are not a feminist. You are a MRA. And when I say sorry, I’m lying

This is sensible reasoned debate is it? And you really wonder why non-GC people don't bother to engage? There's only one kind of person here who isn't having a mature and rational discussion and it ain't me. This doesn't accurately summarise anything I've said, but you know that.

@Waitwhat23

There was an interesting post on another thread (annoyingly I cannot remember which one) which compared the rate of male prisoners who had committed sexual offences with the rate of transwomen prisoners who had committed sexual offences and overall, women were likely to be imprisoned with less sexual offenders in the male estate than being in the female estate as a disproportionate number of transwomen prisoners have committed sexual offences against women.

I think the figures are on here: fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/

@TedMullins no one is being snarky. People are pointing out the flaws in your arguments. There is a difference. You have said women do not matter as much as males. That is fine if you believe that. But you cannot honestly think that throwing women under the bus whilst claiming you are a feminist is logical

[quote Crcohetmonster]@TedMullins no one is being snarky. People are pointing out the flaws in your arguments. There is a difference. You have said women do not matter as much as males. That is fine if you believe that. But you cannot honestly think that throwing women under the bus whilst claiming you are a feminist is logical[/quote]
Calling me a liar and an MRA isn't snarky? OK then. I don't think trans women are males or that trans men are females. So no, I don't think males are more important than females. I don't agree with the assertion that trans inclusion is "throwing women under the bus" or eroding rights. I'm not coming from the same starting point as you. That's fine, you're entitled to believe what you believe, but the same courtesy doesn't seem to extend to trans-inclusive women from gender critical people, it often quickly resorts to name calling.

Regardless of anyone's opinion on this, I don't think the GC crowd is any better at debating than hardline trans activists. Nobody on either side is actually having a sensible conversation.

Ted
You are arguing for mixed sex spaces, is that correct?
Most women, including me, do not want mixed sex in spaces where we are vulnerable. I want the rights to ask for a female HCP
You realise that allowing any male into a female space means it is no longer single sex

Just to pick up ye olde ‘TW have been using womens toilets for decades’ chestnut

Men wishing to transition were told by their doctors that as part of that process and to prove they were serious they should use present as female & womens toilets

Once they had got comfortable doing this they could go back to the doctor who could tick off that their patient was indeed serious about transitioning

At no point did anyone think to ask women if they were ok. Our consent, even in fact our support, was taken for granted because women obviously just exist to make men feel better. NO ONE ASKED US!

Plus of course it goes without saying in 2004 when GRC was brought in, the government estimated it would be about 5000 ppl. They did not anticipate that 18 years later any bloke could state he was a woman and that just had to be accepted because beeee kind/women is a feeling

So Ted, now you've disposed of 'sex' and 'religion or belief' as totally unnecessary and old-fashioned protected characteristics, may I ask, isn't 'age' just a number, how very arbitrary is that? And 'maternity and pregnancy' need to be re-written as 'parenthood and pregnancy', surely. 'Marriage and civil partnership' is surely an outdated bourgeois capitalist concept that has no place in a progressive society! 'Disability' I guess will be entirely self-diagnosed, with NHS just there to dispense the meds. So we're left with 'race' and 'gender reassignment' in Equality Act. Would that make you happy?

I don't think trans women are males or that trans men are females

But they are, by any definition in which words mean things. That makes the rest of your argument hard to follow.

I don't think trans women are males or that trans men are females.

This sentence makes no sense to me, since in order to be a transwoman you have to be male as a starting point. I cannot be a transwoman or identify as one because I am female.

Can you be clear about what your definitions of male, female, transwoman and transman are?

@MNHQ can you kick this MRA of here please?

I don't think trans women are males or that trans men are females.

I genuinely cannot see how though.

A man, is a male, goes through puberty, gets married, has kids, a career, a house and then says 'I'm a woman' and suddenly he is one?

How? How has he changed to be a woman?

*off

I understand many women here have formed their views from trauma, and I sympathise with that, but I also think the GC narrative latches onto and exploits trauma to further these views.

Just noticed this. There's a support group here in Scotland for women who have experienced miscarriage or forced abortion due to domestic violence. The woman who runs the group is inclusive of all females (including transmen) but does not admit transwomen because, well, they're male and cannot ever suffer a miscarriage.

I saw her get astounding amounts of abuse on Twitter yesterday from 'trans inclusive feminists' because of this. She was accused of 'exploiting her trauma' to exclude transwomen. Her trauma includes losing multiple babies due to domestic violence.

The whole 'exploiting trauma' narrative is abhorrent.

[quote 41isthemagic]@MNHQ can you kick this MRA of here please?[/quote]
No! We are about to find out how the magic happens!

Ted you make no sense, you stated that religious belief in not a matter of public policy. You're wrong. Under Public Sector Equality Duty every policy HAS to be considered so as not to affect people with region or belief negatively, compared to to those who do not share that belief. If you're not advocating removal of that protected characteristic then what are you doing with that statement? You either don't understand what you're talking about, or being disingenuous.

If a trans woman is at work, and starts to have symptoms of a heart attack, Ted - would you want us to call an ambulance or give them a Rennie?

35% of people ranked Defence as the most important priority?? 😂

What a load of shite. Not worth the paper it's written on.

I’m not going to answer stupid questions designed to trip me up or give more ammunition to throw insults. The fact that you can’t see how obtuse and immature some of these responses are, yet say TRAs won’t debate, is a huge display of either complete hypocrisy or a lack of awareness approaching delusion. You asked for my opinions, you got them, you’ve got no intention of respectfully conversing or even respecting that in a free society I’m entitled to have my views, and you have yours. You’re really no better than your supposed enemy.

@LK1972

Ted you make no sense, you stated that religious belief in not a matter of public policy. You're wrong. Under Public Sector Equality Duty every policy HAS to be considered so as not to affect people with region or belief negatively, compared to to those who do not share that belief. If you're not advocating removal of that protected characteristic then what are you doing with that statement? You either don't understand what you're talking about, or being disingenuous.

Ok, let me spell it out as you’re determined to misinterpret:

Nobody should be discriminated against because of their religion = good

A specific religious teaching/opinion, such as one that men and women can’t be in the same room together being incorporated into public policy = bad

Clear?

Yes Ted, thank you Ted for apparently me being able to ask for a separate space if I'm uncomfortable - that is very considerate of you. Putting an 18-year old Muslim girl in a position to have to make that request is massively less considerate. Putting an 18-year old Muslim girl who's been raped into that position is actually cruel. Bully for you Ted, gold star for trauma recovery, why can't us silly wims repeated brutalised by men in our lives, starting with fathers, and including random strangers, just do it as well? It must be our bigotry

So as a starting point @TedMullins. Can you tell me if a female can be a transwoman? If not, would that not mean transwomen are male?

Ted 'specific religious teaching/opinion, such as one that men and women can’t be in the same room together being incorporated into public policy' is allowed, and called religious freedom, don't you understand that? You're an intolerant atheist at best

As I mentioned, I've also experienced rape. My views on rape and trauma are just as valid as someone else's

They are. They are not, however, more valid than the views of other victims and you do not have the right to presume their consent to losing single sex spaces and privacy, just because you think social views on nudity are old fashioned.