Is MH just an echo chamber on FWR?

[NarcissasMumintheDoghouse]

Article in the New Statesman shows women's rights not a voter priority (and elsewhere in the publication they predict Labour would get more votes that the Tories).
sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/03/sotn-what-issues-matter-most-to-voters/

And there's going to be a lot of men saying yes as a joke....

Dizziness and arm pain are also symptoms that can be experienced by women. Like I said, if anyone was experiencing symptoms that could point to that I’d advise them to get help. But honestly if someone - female, trans, or otherwise - is experiencing nausea, just nausea on its own, is your first thought going to be a heart attack? Mine wouldn’t be. If they were concerned or it got worse I’d suggest they called 111 as a first port of call, again, I don’t think them being trans would influence my thinking. Incidentally I do think that birth sex is important information medically so people can access the treatment they need, so yes if the trans person neglected to mention this they could be putting themselves at risk but wouldn’t an easy fix for this to be for healthcare professionals to ask patients if they’re trans as a matter of course?

But that’s transphobic@TedMullins. Are you going to force a poor transperson to out themselves? And as we have been told we can never tell if a person is trans or not, what if they lie? I’m with you, we get rid of all this gender bollocks and just stick with biological sex. Easier all round. Then you get your gender neutral utopia amd we get sex segregated spaces. It’s a win win

So you will ignore all the evidence that suggests that understanding the difference in how a heart attack is experienced in females helps saves lives ?

You would ignore nausea as a symptom because???

Evidence not wishy washy ideology

Meanwhile in the pubs and clubs of the UK it seems self Id and this "whole topical trans issue " is a source of humour and piss take

Which is a pretty crap outcome for the small portion of trans people who have genuine , deep rooted and persistent dysmorphia

Exactly @mudgetastic. I think this is going to make life for a lot of transpeople who genuinely have body dysphoria very much harder. And they have stonewall and ‘trans allies’to thank.

@Crcohetmonster

I have noticed you don’t say anything about Indian transmen. Would they be allowed to access make spaces? If transmen are men surely they are men the world over and would therefore have access to all the same rights as Indian men?

I typed a long reply to this and lost it but the gist was - in theory yes I’d like to think they could access men’s services if they so desired, in practice I think a lot would depend on where they were from - a rural area where traditional customs still applied, they’re probably not going to be able to safely come out at all. A more liberal big city, possibly. Sadly a lot would probably rest on how well they passed as male. Trans men can be at risk from men as well but in reality it’s going to depend if we’re talking Buck Angel or someone with a slighter physique.

Let’s not forget that biological men also get raped by other men, though - in all instances, the danger is men. Trans people (I’m including men and women in that) and bio women, and bio men, all face a level of risk from men. But if trans men want to use male spaces what should we do? Forbid them? Make them use female spaces when they look like men? That isn’t going to work either. I think in societies with an extra level of risk, choosing which services to use and whether to outwardly live as trans is going to be decided based on that risk, for both trans men and women.

Mixed spaces are ones that men can access too. Indian women and trans women could both access the same safe and private spaces. They both need protection from men! There’s space for everyone on the ‘in danger from men’ scale. Also Hijra are not generally regarded in India as being the same as transgender. It’s a third gender altogether.
If transwomen are in a space there is no way it can be considered a female space. Trans women are men. All men need protection from men. Your argument does not suggest any sensible reason why a subset of men should be allowed into what was formerly a women's space.

@mudgetastic

So you will ignore all the evidence that suggests that understanding the difference in how a heart attack is experienced in females helps saves lives ?

You would ignore nausea as a symptom because???

Evidence not wishy washy ideology

Ok so last time you felt nauseous did you think you were having a heart attack? I didn’t. If this is your first thought whenever you feel sick then fair play, but it wouldn’t be mine. I’d be more likely to miss my own heart attack than anyone else’s because an isolated episode of nausea wouldn’t make me seek medical help. But I’d advise anyone else who was concerned about themselves to get advice or go to hospital if they felt it was necessary.

But in our lovely gender neutral utopia it won’t matter. The males will use male-spaces and the females will use female spaces. In our utopia remember, we’ve got rid of gender and ideas of what a man and woman is, so we’re back to sex. Is that not what you wanted? A male can wear whatever he likes and present how he likes and not be judged and the same for females,

You do know in India if a woman even tried changing gender to man, even in a liberal city she would be a untouchable and fair game to being raped or killed. You don’t seem to know much about Indian culture or how women are treated. Shall we try a different country!

It's well known that when the physical differences between males and females are ignored the females die

Just how it is , get over it the distinction is real and needs to be acknowledged and understood

@Crcohetmonster

But that’s transphobic@TedMullins. Are you going to force a poor transperson to out themselves? And as we have been told we can never tell if a person is trans or not, what if they lie? I’m with you, we get rid of all this gender bollocks and just stick with biological sex. Easier all round. Then you get your gender neutral utopia amd we get sex segregated spaces. It’s a win win

Who says it’s transphobic to ask people in a medical setting if they’re trans? ‘Does your gender match your biological sex’ or variations of such a question are pretty par for the course on equality monitoring forms and I haven’t seen any trans people complaining. I don’t think it’s transphobic to ask, if a trans person feels it is and decides not to disclose it and then doesn’t receive the right medical treatment that’s just making life harder for themselves.

But really are all these hypothetical scenarios helpful? Are they furthering the discussion or just making stuff up to prolong this argument when it’s clear neither of us are going to agree? I feel like I’ve done what was asked, which was explain my opinions, and apart from a few people asking genuine questions it’s all just getting a bit silly now.

I am asking genuine questions. I am trying to understand why you are so set on removing women’s rights to single sex spaces, and why you believe the feelings of males should be more important that that of women. I have agreed with you that gender is bollocks and should be eliminated. So we reached mutual ground in that. I thought we were making progress.

This issue is now being discussed by many women, who only recently are discovering how we’re being affected. I’m a Brit, who lives in the USA, west coast, and a group of us had planned on sending our tween and teen daughters to this summer camp.
ktla.com/news/controversy-erupts-after-parents-of-los-alamitos-fifth-graders-learn-of-sleeping-arrangements-at-camp/
Not now. We’re going to a dude ranch instead (horse camp). This isn’t something I’m willing to take a chance on.

@Crcohetmonster

But in our lovely gender neutral utopia it won’t matter. The males will use male-spaces and the females will use female spaces. In our utopia remember, we’ve got rid of gender and ideas of what a man and woman is, so we’re back to sex. Is that not what you wanted? A male can wear whatever he likes and present how he likes and not be judged and the same for females,

Well yes, that would be great if everyone could do that wouldn’t it! We agree on that! And we agree that trans men are at risk from men India, and that male violence happens on a scale we don’t have to contend with in the UK, hence why the approach to mixed spaces would be different… that’s not really such a gotcha is it?

Sex is not in and of itself a reason to segregate. Sex is physical characteristics. Sex doesn’t make men rape women - that would be centuries of patriarchy and misogyny, rape apologism and religious misogyny and male supremacy. These things happen because of man-made social norms, not chromosomes. In the genderfree utopia we’d have transcended that. Sex is a biological mechanism for breeding. Humans (men) created the patriarchy by thought and free will, not because their chromosomes and penises made them do it. I don’t think we’re in a genderfree utopia currently but we can work towards it by dismantling the patriarchy. Until that happens, trans people face the same risk from men as women do.

@mudgetastic

It's well known that when the physical differences between males and females are ignored the females die

Just how it is , get over it the distinction is real and needs to be acknowledged and understood

So do you go to A&E every time you feel sick? Do you tell any woman who says they’re experiencing nausea to call an ambulance in case they’re having a heart attack?

I’m aware women experience heart attacks differently to men, I’m just saying I personally wouldn’t go to hospital every time I felt sick in case it was a heart attack. Maybe that’s my mistake and I should be seeking medical advice. Even so, I’m not really sure what this has to do with trans people except that trans women might have more obvious symptoms of a heart attack because of having a biologically male body? If that’s the case then it would be trans men at increased risk of missing heart attacks wouldn’t it? Like I said I think medically it is important to record bio sex and trans status

I'm still interested to hear why trans specific services are OK but single sex services are not.

No they don’t, otherwise transpeople would be being killed at the same rate as women. How many transpeople were killed in the uk last year vs how many women? If they are in the sane amount of danger surely the rates would be comparable right?

Sex is a biological mechanism for breeding.

And that’s one damn good reason for separating male from female teenagers on summer camp.

There seems such a level of naivety in the ‘gender matters, sex doesn’t’ view of the world.

So if sex is only used for breeding, but we’ve removed what it means to be a man or a woman, how would we know who could have babies?

I typed another long reply and lost it but basically - sex segregation has the same potential issues as gender segregation. I believe a better starting point would be mixed services with exemptions where requested/necessary. If trans people want to advocate for and create trans specific services that is up to them, but I imagine these would technically be mixed as if they are trans specific that includes all trans people, not just trans men or women.

@Waitwhat23

I'm still interested to hear why trans specific services are OK but single sex services are not.

Yep. Trans, as seen by others, is just physical characteristics which in and of themselves don't make people assault or oppress trans people.

@TedMullins

I typed another long reply and lost it but basically - sex segregation has the same potential issues as gender segregation. I believe a better starting point would be mixed services with exemptions where requested/necessary. If trans people want to advocate for and create trans specific services that is up to them, but I imagine these would technically be mixed as if they are trans specific that includes all trans people, not just trans men or women.

Why would you accept trans specific spaces when you don't accept female only spaces?

But exemptions are being denied or ignored. HR managers of NHS Trusts are on record declaring that they will ignore the EQA2010 and EHRC guidelines and not provide single sex spaces. Single sex services (like my example earlier in the thread) are being targeted and harassed by 'trans inclusive feminists'.

So why are single sex services being so targeted? If single sex services are not allowed then why are trans specific services? Presumably, if it is unacceptable for single sex services to not include males, it is equally unacceptable for trans specific services to not include non trans people.