Is MH just an echo chamber on FWR?

[NarcissasMumintheDoghouse]

Article in the New Statesman shows women's rights not a voter priority (and elsewhere in the publication they predict Labour would get more votes that the Tories).
sotn.newstatesman.com/2022/03/sotn-what-issues-matter-most-to-voters/

@TedMullins

OK, well I don't agree that the mere presence of "a male" suddenly makes it more dangerous or traumatising to be naked in the situations mentioned above where nudity would be an accepted thing.

A trans person is not a male who would pretend to be female for the purposes of sexually assaulting someone. Trans people are always trans, they don't just dip in and out of it for fun.

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-trans-inmates-revert-males-25840252

Self id in action. Scottish prisons require no GRC, simply self id. But due to 'acceptance without question', this has to be taken at face value - these men (who have often committed sexual violence against women) are trans because they say they are. That's the point. Who can say whether they're really trans or just taking advantage of a system where women are being put at risk?

How do you assess who is really trans?

What @LK1972 said. Why do we need to explain

OK so, I have been raped. I don't personally believe that having been raped, or any trauma that I may have left over from this, is a reason to preclude trans women from accessing services they need. I don't think it is a reason for a blanket exclusion policy of trans women. People are traumatised by many things – does someone who's been in a car crash and is traumatised by the sight of a lorry have the right to go through life never seeing a lorry? Should a law be made that lorries can't travel on public roads purely for people who've been hit by them? No.

I thought I made it clear in my post above, though, that private facilities should be available for those who request them, so in that specific case I would favour either you or the trans woman being moved into a private room upon request. Similarly with religious concerns, I don't think these should trump trans women accessing services, because I find those religious restrictions (be they from Chrisitan, Muslim or any other faith) misogynist and othering in the first place and don't believe they have a place in public policy in a modern, secular society. People are free to believe whatever they want in their own homes and request exemptions or alterations but I don't think policy should be formed around this.

@beastlyslumber

But I equally don't think it's wrong to examine whether prejudice has led to any sexual preference - this could be about race, weight, hair colour etc.

This is homophobic, Ted. It's not prejudiced for a lesbian to not want to sleep with a male. It's literally what being a lesbian is. It's disgusting to accuse lesbians of bigotry for being lesbians. Please stop that.

Did you actually read what I put about lesbians? That I think it's valid for a lesbian not to be attracted to a person with a penis? Or are you just cherry picking quotes that you can use to make baseless accusations of homophobia?

As a trans inclusive feminist @TedMullins are you happy to have transmen locked in prison with male sex offenders? You don’t seem to mention transmen very much or how they would fit into male spaces. If transwoman would be in danger in male space, surely actual females would be in even more danger?

@Waitwhat23 I don't believe trans women who have committed sexual crimes against women should be in with the general prison population in a women's prison. They should be segregated for safety due to the nature of the crime.

A trans person is not a male who would pretend to be female for the purposes of sexually assaulting someone. Trans people are always trans, they don't just dip in and out of it for fun.

How do we tell whether someone is a real trans person or not? Or is a trans person just anyone who says they are trans?

Ah, the 'intersectional' answer to 'what about women with religious beliefs?'. They should be excluded.

'Intersectional' meaning including male but not groups of women who are part of an additional protected characteristic.

How very inclusive.

@Crcohetmonster

As a trans inclusive feminist *@TedMullins* are you happy to have transmen locked in prison with male sex offenders? You don’t seem to mention transmen very much or how they would fit into male spaces. If transwoman would be in danger in male space, surely actual females would be in even more danger?

If an offender is a trans man then yes, I think if they request to be in a male prison this should be accommodated where possible. Again, on a case by case basis with safety concerns being taken into account.

No, I haven't mentioned trans men very much but similarly I believe they are male and deserve to be treated as male in life and policy, I did touch on this with what I said about inclusive language.

On that note, I've seen it said on here that trans men are welcome in women's toilets because they could have a vagina. I'm afraid I find it very hard to believe that a trans man with a beard and male physique – which is entirely possible if they've been taking testosterone for a long time –wouldn't cause outrage. Surely, the flipside of this is that natal men wouldn't need to pretend they were women to get into toilets and changing rooms, they could just say they're trans men and have a female body? (I don't think this would happen, but those who think men pretending to be women would be a widespread concern can surely see that men pretending to be trans men could be an equal danger in sex-based facilities).

[quote TedMullins]@Waitwhat23 I don't believe trans women who have committed sexual crimes against women should be in with the general prison population in a women's prison. They should be segregated for safety due to the nature of the crime.[/quote]
kpssinfo.org/the-transgender-unit-e-wing/

"People are free to believe whatever they want in their own homes and request exemptions or alterations but I don't think policy should be formed around this." So should we form (or change) policy around any people's beliefs or should we stick to biology?

kpssinfo.org/males-in-womens-prisons-convictions-sentences/

So can I just clarify @TedMullins you are a feminist but you believe the rights and feelings of females should be put aside fir males? Women of faith , homosexual women or traumatised women do not matter as much as males. Sorry but you are not a feminist. You are a MRA. And when I say sorry, I’m lying

@Waitwhat23

Ah, the 'intersectional' answer to 'what about women with religious beliefs?'. They should be excluded.

'Intersectional' meaning including male but not groups of women who are part of an additional protected characteristic.

How very inclusive.

again, I'm being wilfully misquoted. I said I don't think religious beliefs have a place in public policy. I have said, in every answer, that private facilities and exemptions should be there for people who ask.

[quote TedMullins]@Waitwhat23 I don't believe trans women who have committed sexual crimes against women should be in with the general prison population in a women's prison. They should be segregated for safety due to the nature of the crime.[/quote]
Segregated in a male or female prison?

What is it about a 'transwoman' who has raped someone with 'her' penis that makes 'her' a woman?

You can't claim that this 'transwoman' is 'living as a woman' because women don't have penises, so no woman could ever rape anyone.

Surely, the flipside of this is that natal men wouldn't need to pretend they were women to get into toilets and changing rooms, they could just say they're trans men and have a female body?

Actually making it easier for men to get into female spaces as they wouldn't even have to attempt to present as female.

lol Ted, did you just told me to get over my trauma, pretty much!I see your understanding of equality also doesn't stretch to religious tolerance, you're just a bundle of fun !

[quote TedMullins]@Waitwhat23 I don't believe trans women who have committed sexual crimes against women should be in with the general prison population in a women's prison. They should be segregated for safety due to the nature of the crime.[/quote]
Are you familiar with the conviction rate for sexual crimes in this country Ted ?

Lot more sex offenders that have not been convicted around. One thing the overwhelming majority share is being male.

Trans women who've committed sex offences should be dealt with differently and the safety of other prisoners should be the first concern. Them having committed a sex crime does not necessarily negate them feeling they are trans.

I'm sure biological women who have been penetrated digitally or with an object by another biological woman take issue with the legal definition of the word rape. The vast majority of rape is committed by men, against both women and men, but getting hung up on what the word means in legislature is unhelpful for actually making decisions. Do you think people like Gayle Newland, a natal woman who pretended to be a man to rape another woman, should not be put in women's prisons? What about men who rape other men? Where should they go? Trans women are not the only threat when it comes to sexual safety in prisons.

So as far as I can see, @TedMullins thinks women do not matter as much as Menzies. But is a feminist. In the words if princess bride “ you keep using that word. It does not mean what you think it means”

Until and unless we start recording gender identity and sex separately of the perpetrators of sex crimes we cannot possibly say with confidence that trans women are of the same risk as men.

Well, data suggest that for males, the percentage of men who are in prison for sex related offences, is around 20%. But for transwomen, this is at around 50%. So over twice the risk?

So to summarise, Ted, you think penises belong in female places, sexual preferences are a matter for discussion and 're-examination' for any suspected bigotry, and religious belief should be disregarded in public policy (and I guess removed as protected characteristics). What else? What about all that harmful free speech, hey, do you have further suggestions? Maybe couple of more protected characteristics for culling?

These comments are exactly why people who aren't gender critical don't bother to engage. This is not reasoned debate. I'm being misquoted left right and centre, called a liar, and not shown a basic level of respect.

As I mentioned, I've also experienced rape. My views on rape and trauma are just as valid as someone else's. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking, I don't think there's any changing the minds of most people here. I'm engaging in good faith and I'm getting snark and snide remarks back, which, frankly, is no better than the behaviour of 'TRAS' who refuse to debate.

I understand many women here have formed their views from trauma, and I sympathise with that, but I also think the GC narrative latches onto and exploits trauma to further these views. I stand by what I said about trauma, religion, in fact, most instances of personal opinion, not being the baseline on which public policy should be made. The part where I said private facilities should be available on request is being repeatedly ignored, and frankly most people here are making themselves look fairly silly by whinging nobody will debate with them, but the moment they do, resort to personal attacks, sarcasm and wilful obfuscation.

Them having committed a sex crime does not necessarily negate them feeling they are trans.

Why is this 'feeling' they have so important? Obviously it's important to that person, but why should society change in any way because of these feelings that some people have? Feelings don't result in people changing sex, and a man who has a 'feeling' that he is trans is still a man, even if he has a 'feeling' that he is a woman.

What have this person's 'feelings' got to do with the rest of us?

I don't care how someone feels about their sex, how they dress or what body modifications they have. They can't change sex no matter how much they might want to.

There was an interesting post on another thread (annoyingly I cannot remember which one) which compared the rate of male prisoners who had committed sexual offences with the rate of transwomen prisoners who had committed sexual offences and overall, women were likely to be imprisoned with less sexual offenders in the male estate than being in the female estate as a disproportionate number of transwomen prisoners have committed sexual offences against women.