No debate is over at the Guardian

[InvisibleDragon]

Simultaneous release of pieces by Susanna Rustin and Zoe Williams:

Rustin:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/06/labour-policies-trans-women-rights-gender-recognition-act

Williams:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/06/labour-policy-gender-back-trans-rights-boris-johnson

Williams has exploded my head with this:
The Equalities and Human Rights Commission has provided guidelines extending the circumstances under which trans people can be excluded from single-sex spaces. “Legitimate justifications” now include female-only fitness classes and the toilets of places of worship where it may offend people, on religious grounds, to have inclusive spaces. I can’t even wrap my head around the person who doesn’t want anybody trans in their aerobics class, nor in my years writing a fitness column have I ever seen “female-only” as a spec. This is a hokey, made-up scenario. Those crop up a lot. And let’s not rehash where faith as a caveat to equality meets its hard limit.

She lives in London. Has she never been to a women only swim session on Bethnal green? (Unlikely)

Has she ever thought about why women might want a Women's self-defence class (with no men)?
(Clearly also unlikely)

She's banging on about feminism, but did she never hear of women's consciousness raising groups and The personal is political? (It appears not)

Gosh, Zoe Williams talks an amazing amount of drivel.

But - thank goodness for Susanna Rustin.

It might be good to see these two discuss the issues. Both are intelligent and eloquent.

The Rustin piece is excellent. Many good points including:

"But Labour’s treatment of women’s groups has, in my view, created a serious problem. For all the frequent complaints that the issue is “toxic”, and Keir Starmer’s calls for “respectful” discussion, the fact is that there is no equivalent on the gender-critical side to the Labour Campaign for Trans Rights’ call for women to be expelled from the party or the repeated attacks on the gender-critical Labour MP Rosie Duffield. There are no shadow cabinet members deriding LGBTQ+ campaigners as “dinosaurs”, as David Lammy said of sex-based rights campaigners. And there are no prominent LGBTQ+ service-providers barred from joining Labour, as the feminist domestic violence campaigner Karen Ingala Smith was in 2020."

'let’s not rehash where faith as a caveat to equality meets its hard limit.'

What does she mean - that Muslim or Jewish women who observe sex segregation should just fuck off and get over it?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_separation_in_Judaism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_gender_segregation

Thanks for those links.

I am a simple person. In years gone by, when I saw our local swimming pool advertise women-only swim sessions, I assumed the only swimmers admitted to the pool during those times would be female. I myself never got round to taking advantage of these sessions, but it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to see why some women would feel more comfortable exercising and getting changed before/after these sessions without any men present. Many women are intensely self-conscious about their appearance, often because of catcalling and worse from men. Some, sadly, have good reason to fear being near male bodies because of a history of experiencing male violence and sexual violence. Then there are those from strict religious groups who can't exercise publicly if there are men there.

Nowadays if I saw such a session on offer, I would wonder if I could be just as sure as I used to be that it would be female only. And if I wonder this, with no particular reason to prefer single-sex sessions, how much more doubt will there be in the mind of a woman from one of the groups I mentioned above. I would expect many of them to decide not to bother even trying the sessions out.

It's akin to the urinary leash of yesteryear. If women can't be sure single-sex facilities and services are available, many will simply stay at home and make do without.

Zoe Williams does herself no favours by showing her lack of imagination and empathy in this way.

‘I can’t even wrap my head around the person who doesn’t want anybody trans in their aerobics class...’

This is because she can’t wrap her head round the existence of religiously conservative people who might be abused by male people for exercising in front of a male person.

This is because she can’t wrap her head round the existence of women who have been objectified and abused by males when they have tried to exercise in a public space (for being ‘too fat’ or ‘too attractive’) and want privacy.

There's no doubt that the exercise of religious rights can result in sexist exclusion or the indoctrination of sexism and homophobia in children, because the religions I'm aware of can definitely be used that way.

Providing women only swimming sessions is not sexist exclusion, but women being punished by religious people for going to mixed swimming sessions certainly is. There's a difference.

Well done The Guardian.

If they keep it up, I might even return to considering myself a Guardian reader. I am happy for them to publish a range of views like this. This is fantastic!

Zoe Williams couldn't understand why using the phrase 'cervix havers' was a problem as according to her every woman knows they have a cervix. Obviously uneducated women or women who don't speak fluent English are not on her radar. What a bubble she must live in.

The total disregard for women from conservative religious faiths has really really annoyed me. I saw something quite similar from a senior colleague recently who considers herself extremely right-on politically.

I'm not religious, but some of my husband's family are. Last time I visited them (in the middle East) I went with my sister in law to her women only gym a few times. Because it was a strictly female only space, women who would wear a hijab or niqab and very conservative clothes on the street felt comfortable to exercise in a t shirt and no head cover. That space - and enforcing / trusting it - gave lots of women a freedom they would not have otherwise had. It also provided up to 2 hours free childcare.

The idea that trying to provide a similar space in the UK (a liberal democracy rather than a dictatorship) would be seen as bigoted or offensive is just through the looking glass levels of ridiculous.

My colleague is an observant Muslim. Her exercise of choice was swimming. She stopped when women-only began to include males. All the benefits of exercise are being denied some women and girls.

@Violetparis

Zoe Williams couldn't understand why using the phrase 'cervix havers' was a problem as according to her every woman knows they have a cervix. Obviously uneducated women or women who don't speak fluent English are not on her radar. What a bubble she must live in.

A survey in Britain showed that a large percentage of the women surveyed didn't know they had a cervix. I have the link somewhere...

Then there's the fact that the neck is also called the cervical spine. So the word may be seen as having quite a different meaning when it is associated with euphemisms for the female sex.

@NeedToKnow101

My colleague is an observant Muslim. Her exercise of choice was swimming. She stopped when women-only began to include males. All the benefits of exercise are being denied some women and girls.

And yet we keep seeing in surveys and research that women and girls drop out of sport and exercise at far higher rates than men do. I'm not religious or conservative but I enjoy female-only swimming sessions when available, because I'm self-conscious and not a confident swimmer

This is such a terrific bit at the end of the Rustin piece "Currently, between 20 and 40 Labour MPs are known to be sympathetic. I hope they can persuade Labour to shift its position with regard to the sex-based rights of women. Not only because I agree with them. But because I don’t think it would be at all surprising if voters were to turn against politicians who speak in riddles about the differences between male and female bodies – and deride advocacy on behalf of biologically female people as a relic from prehistory." Well said!

I agree with Rustin but I'm not sure her piece will make much sense to people who are not part of the 'in crowd' and don't already know the terminology of the debate. I think we need more 'explainer' pieces that set things out really clearly for readers who are only just hearing about this topic and need to understand what is actually being discussed.

I can’t even wrap my head around the person who doesn’t want anybody trans in their aerobics class...’

Anyone who can’t wrap their head around that shouldn’t be a journalist.

Well, that is rather fantastic. I wonder what its like at HQ today. Has Talcum X blown a gasket yet? Surely he should be threatening to resign about now

I used to swim at a women’s only gym and did the aqua aerobics most weeks, the Orthodox Jewish women would remove their wigs to wear swim caps - they absolutely wouldn’t have stayed if men had joined.

Maybe Canada is far different but we have huge numbers of women only gyms here, which don't cater in particular to religious people. I would be a little surprised if that wasn't a think at all in the UK, am I wrong?

There was a piece in the Independent not so long ago where a woman talked about being kicked or swam over by men when they swam faster than men and there were loads of responses with similar stories. So there’s probably non-religious women who prefer single-sex swimming too (not to say I don’t respect the religious reasons).

Sorry to ask Mangy but are the Canadian gyms sex specific or gender specific?

@DomesticatedZombie

Gosh, Zoe Williams talks an amazing amount of drivel.

But - thank goodness for Susanna Rustin.

It might be good to see these two discuss the issues. Both are intelligent and eloquent.

Agree re ZW. Did she never go to the Hampstead Ladies’ Pond ? I used to go to a female only Gym class. Also transpeople make up 1% of all people now ? What utter tosh.

Just read one of them _ Williams

Good grief - no it's not trans people we want to exclude from single sex spaces , its trans people whose sex isn't consistent with the single sex space

Stupid to not bother to be accurate / comes across as lazy bigoted reporting