No debate is over at the Guardian

[InvisibleDragon]

Simultaneous release of pieces by Susanna Rustin and Zoe Williams:

Rustin:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/06/labour-policies-trans-women-rights-gender-recognition-act

Williams:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/06/labour-policy-gender-back-trans-rights-boris-johnson

[quote DomesticatedZombie]'let’s not rehash where faith as a caveat to equality meets its hard limit.'

What does she mean - that Muslim or Jewish women who observe sex segregation should just fuck off and get over it?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_separation_in_Judaism
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_gender_segregation[/quote]
I do believe this is Zoe Williams' Riley Dennis moment where she is, indeed, effectively recommending that women should just get over their faith/culture/trauma and realise that the needs of The Sacred Caste must always take precedence.

Oddly enough, The Sacred Caste in gender terms has an almost perfect Venn diagram overlap with The Sacred Caste in sex caste terms (see Sheila Jeffreys) and with The Sacred Caste in social, civic, and political hierarchies. It's almost as if they're the same people persisting through slightly different nomenclatures but an identical entitlement.

This bit in the Williams piece annoys me. This is the next battleground for gender-critical feminists, who would like to see the party drop its support for reform, on the basis that any such move allows for more trans people – generally cast by some as predatory men – to access single sex spaces.

How many times does it need to be said? Look at the crime stats. Almost all sexual predators are male. The great majority of violent crime is committed by males. They don't come with a great big P for predator tattooed on the forehead, so for safeguarding purposes we exclude all males from certain spaces and services. There is no evidence at all that males who adopt a trans identity have a female pattern of offending rather than a male one, so they get treated the same as all the other males. Also, to state the blindingly obvious, criminals are dishonest! They tell lies to get an advantage. So self-ID with no checks, no gatekeeping, is wide open to abuse by predators, i.e. criminals.

@ChiefInspectorParker

I used to swim regularly during women-only sessions at York Hall. I used to feel happy and proud to live in a community where Muslim women could enjoy swimming, where it was normal for people of different backgrounds to accommodate each other, and it felt like a small emblem of inclusion at what must often have been a difficult time for those women (I started going there in 2002).

True inclusion yes, rather than the current kind of 'inclusion.'

I did a women only triathlon, because I was told that men swim over the top of you and push you under rather than overtake. Whereas women go round each other (and are less likely to need to overtake due to being more equally matched).

@parietal

I agree with Rustin but I'm not sure her piece will make much sense to people who are not part of the 'in crowd' and don't already know the terminology of the debate. I think we need more 'explainer' pieces that set things out really clearly for readers who are only just hearing about this topic and need to understand what is actually being discussed.

That would be useful, but I thought Rustin devoted quite a bit of her piece to explaining the issues. At times it felt like she was more interested in explaining the background than putting forward her views. It may just be because I'm already more familiar with the issues than the average person, but I thought she did a reasonably good job of explaining them in the space available. It was very good to see the two pieces side by side, letting readers read both and decide for themselves. Hope we see more of that!

Zoe’s arguments seem to be:

It’s not a problem (for me)
It’s not a problem (for me)
It’s not a problem (for me)
It’s not a problem (for me)

… so why should any other woman complain?

It was argued in an UnHerd piece today that "Right-thinking Americans, until very recently, tended to believe that heated arguments over transgenderism were a peculiarly British phenomenon" and that questioning the TRA agenda was transphobic and rightwing, but "that all changed last month".

If true, perhaps it is no coincidence that the Guardian has chosen this moment to adopt a more balanced approach (and slowly come more into the line with the much better line of the Observer?)!
In the past, American contributors have exerted public pressure on the editors.

@LizzieSiddal

I can’t even wrap my head around the person who doesn’t want anybody trans in their aerobics class...’

Anyone who can’t wrap their head around that shouldn’t be a journalist.

Quite.

I used to attend a women only gym (many years ago). Not religious. No history of trauma. I just felt less self conscious exercising in a women only space.

I also remember a Muslim colleague removing her headscarf to adjust her hair in the mirror in the ladies loo (I particularly remember because she had the most beautiful hair I’ve ever seen). Presumably she wouldn’t have felt comfortable to do that if the space wasn’t single sex.

These situations aren’t impossible to imagine are they??

About fucking time. Do they think people have the emotional energy to speak in tongues on this. Be clear where you stand or fuck off.

I wish they would stop talking about "excluding trans people". It's about all males and females using the single-sex services of their sex, not imposing themsleves on spaces designated for the opposite sex!

I've no idea the point that Williams was making in her final comment in this paragraph:

"As things stand now, the government has blocked reforms to the GRA and the Equalities and Human Rights Commission has provided guidelines extending the circumstances under which trans people can be excluded from single-sex spaces. “Legitimate justifications” now include female-only fitness classes and the toilets of places of worship where it may offend people, on religious grounds, to have inclusive spaces. I can’t even wrap my head around the person who doesn’t want anybody trans in their aerobics class, nor in my years writing a fitness column have I ever seen “female-only” as a spec. This is a hokey, made-up scenario. Those crop up a lot. And let’s not rehash where faith as a caveat to equality meets its hard limit."

"Rehash" links to an article about the Christian couple who discriminated against a gay couple which has zero relationship to single sex spaces: www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/27/christian-guesthouse-owners-appeal-gay-couples

@BenCooperisaGod

Well, that is rather fantastic. I wonder what its like at HQ today. Has Talcum X blown a gasket yet? Surely he should be threatening to resign about now

He has blown a Suzanne Moore gasket today yes. Almost seems obsessed with her.

This is all very predictable from Zoe Williams.

Just after the EHRC released its guidance, she was asking Jolyon Maugham on twitter for advice on a legal challenge to the guidance. If she were an honest journalist she'd be asking a number of Equalities specialist lawyers, not a tax barrister with a longstanding interest in blocking equalities lawyers and gaslighting womens' rights campaigners.

twitter.com/zoesqwilliams/status/1511255218599702530?s=20&t=AnJCEqDjbFLovkSCRFXgQg

@zoesqwilliams
@JolyonMaugham
sorry if this is a dumb q, but do you think the new EHRC guidance on single sex spaces would survive legal challenge? 9:11 AM · Apr 5, 2022

I didn't think it would be long before we'd get her gaslighting article....

That link would make sense if the religious owners of a swimming pool were refusing to let transwomen use the pool because they were wearing women's swimsuits in breach of Leviticus. It doesn't really relate to making provision alongside other sessions for those whose religion precludes changing in front of unrelated males.

Is it because ZW doesn’t understand that the majority of trans women still have penises? Does she think they have all had surgery or hormones?

@Abra1d1 , this was what changed my mind. I used to think this was about poor souls who had mutilated themselves to feel better about themselves. Nope. Not that. Apart from poor lesbians conned into being transmen to treat dysphoria.

Just after the EHRC released its guidance, she was asking Jolyon Maugham on twitter for advice on a legal challenge to the guidance. If she were an honest journalist she'd be asking a number of Equalities specialist lawyers,

She might even have considered any of the Legal Feminists on Twitter like Anya Palmer or Naomi Cunningham, or women with an above average knowledge of Human Rights, such as Rosa Freedman. Sean Jones QC is a less partial specialist Employment and Sports Law silk that Williams might have approached…

@Violetparis

Zoe Williams couldn't understand why using the phrase 'cervix havers' was a problem as according to her every woman knows they have a cervix. Obviously uneducated women or women who don't speak fluent English are not on her radar. What a bubble she must live in.

I couldn't see anything in the piece about this, so googled it. It looks like you're referring to a tweet by ZW a year ago:

"Well, for one, i think it's absolute horseshit to imagine some class of "vulnerable" women who won't attend their smear test unless they're specifically invited as women. I'd go as far as to say everyone with a cervix knows they have one. So, for two, I think you're doing that >> thing again, where you ventriloquise your view onto some imagined "weak" woman who needs the ferocity of your protection. And I just think it's in really bad faith."

So she didn't equate having a cervix to being a woman (just to clarify the language).
I disagree with her, obviously, though. I think loads of people wouldn't know they had a cervix unless they'd already had a smear, been pregnant etc, particularly if they're young and being told that anyone can be either sex. It's not like it's an easy body part to check yourself.

I'd almost forgotten about the ghastly Riley J Dennis. Which is a bit unkind because he actually peaked me way back.

I will admit to not knowing what a cervix was, and not knowing I had one. English is not my first language.
I can also confirm that men swim over you, even when it is not a competition.

I taught refugees for a while; both language and swimming, actually.
The swimming lessons were segregated by sex both because of religious reasons AND because of widespread experiences of rape and sexual abuse. I will never forget when a guard had forgotten something in the office and accidently came in (very briefly and with a haste retreat) during one of the women’s lessons.
Already they were swimming fully dressed, but just spotting this man out of the corner of the eye many of them threw themselves onto the floor or behind walls. The panic was palpable.

It is so shocking to read that people think this is of no consequence because someone ‘feels’ like a woman. What a luxury for them, and what a completely imbesilic worldview.

Careful Zoe. Your middle class privilege is showing. I think this article tells you everything you need to know about privately educated Zoe.

www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/thanet-guardian-writer-gobsmacked-after-4660432

male lifeguard

@MamaSaidTheredBeDaysLikeThis

There was a piece in the Independent not so long ago where a woman talked about being kicked or swam over by men when they swam faster than men and there were loads of responses with similar stories. So there’s probably non-religious women who prefer single-sex swimming too (not to say I don’t respect the religious reasons).

Yep. I, and many other fast, female swimmers, would go to the female only sessions, to avoid the aggressive behaviour of men who can't cope with a woman out swimming them, over taking them, and who would do stuff like swimming down the middle of the lane with their rubbish, flailing strokes, meaning anyone trying to get past them got clobbered.

I also carried on fast lane swimming whilst very pregnant, and could still out swim most of the men if I went to a mixed session. However, the risks of a kick to the belly were very real. Another reason for the need for single sex sessions is that many women find swimming the only form of relief and exercise during pregnancy. I've been a several times a week swimmer for 30 years, all in public pools. Women just do not pose the same sort of physical risk as men in terms of getting badly kicked, hit or crashed into.

Oh god
some men ‘feels’ like a woman

Need sleep