No debate is over at the Guardian

[InvisibleDragon]

Simultaneous release of pieces by Susanna Rustin and Zoe Williams:

Rustin:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/06/labour-policies-trans-women-rights-gender-recognition-act

Williams:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/06/labour-policy-gender-back-trans-rights-boris-johnson

Thank you for posting the article. The flood gates are opening by the look of it.

I would like to know why Williams and Starmer both use the term EqualiTIES Act instead of Equality. Coincidence or a specific reason?

@HomeHomeInTheRange

Men swim over the top of women they wish to overtake?

Bloody hell.

And often throw a punch as they go. Nobody does front crawl with a closed fist, so no it isn’t “an accident”, it is punishment for daring to swim well and showing them up, or getting in their way, or whatever imagined slight they think we’ve inflicted on them.

And then there is the sexual comments (I switched to swimming purely during women only sessions when pregnant because I just couldn’t face any more offers “to put another one in there”, or requests to be breastfed). And the yelling whale comments at fat women.

This is all groups of men in their 20s, showing off to each other, and no of course the 18 yr old on lifeguard duty doesn’t dare tackle them/throw them out. They just sit there ignoring it.

current legislation which says that trans men are men and trans women are women, regardless of whether they have undergone medical treatments.

Where did she get this utter hogswiffle?

It's that old quote about what feminism means, to me. The one about defending the rights of all women, even the ones you don't like.

I can despise the patriarchal bs of religions that say women's hair can't be uncovered in front of men which then relegates women to a sub-set of 'swimmer'. But my priority is going to be allowing those women the opportunity to be swimmers, rather than shoring up yet another sacred caste at women's expense.

And that's before you even think about women impacted by trauma. It's luxury beliefs - this doesn't bother me, therefore it doesn't bother anyone.

It's that old quote about what feminism means, to me. The one about defending the rights of all women, even the ones you don't like.

This one?

Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy on behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who use to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with any more. It doesn't matter who the individual women are.
—Andrea Dworkin

I did not know that men swimming over women was a 'thing'. I swim regularly and it has happened to me more than once but I didn't realise I wasn't the only person it has happened to. I'm sitting here gobsmacked at my own stupidity.

So disappointed in Zoe Williams. Like PPs, I loved her pieces on pregnancy, eg. the debunking of some ridiculous food and drink 'rules' for pregnant women. But now her brains appear to have fallen out.

I think the problem is that Zoe has been reading the Equalities Act (her words) not the Equality Act that everyone else has been using.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

It's that old quote about what feminism means, to me. The one about defending the rights of all women, even the ones you don't like.

This one?

Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy on behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who use to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with any more. It doesn't matter who the individual women are.
—Andrea Dworkin

Yes! thank you @EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

@Justme56

I think the problem is that Zoe has been reading the Equalities Act (her words) not the Equality Act that everyone else has been using.

Equalities Act aka Islington Aspirations (borough: luxury beliefs).

The blowback from the Guardian's American activist-journalists (perhaps the ones that broke the WiSpa story of The Lying Women and the Harmless Penis) will soon be furiously pumping their bile into its pages.

Or it may be left to one of their resident misogynists like Owen Jones.

I foresee mobs of angry young men yelling abuse outside Guardian HQ.

Bloody hell @Changechangychange

I had no idea. Christ

Zoe Williams is and always has been an idiot.

There's a line between journalism and sensationalism. Zoe appears to not be able to empathise with anyone who has not been brought up with her privilege and in her culture and that may be why what she has written is definitely sensationalism. Using yoga classes as an example of an exercise class is ridiculous and does not test the point she is attempting to dismiss. It reflect really poorly on the guardian that they published such a silly piece. I can only imagine that they were trying to appear impartial and that in order to 'balance' Susanna's excellent piece, they wanted a pro-TRA piece. I guess there were no thoughtful or sensible pieces on offer though if that's the best they could come up with?

Good thread here pointing out the errors (and bonus bit at the end showing she should have known this!)
twitter.com/Getthelawright/status/1511827929961054209

Went to a zumba class at a ladies gym a while back. It was a heat wave and we were dancing in sports bras. A man approached the area, stood in the doorway and started holding up his mobile phone towards us - he seemed to be filming us. I asked the instructor, but she said that she wasn’t allowed to ask him to leave. I don’t go there anymore.

Yes, I want women only exercise classes. I want to be able to dance, away from the male gaze. I want to spin around and bend without suddenly coming face to face with someone’s sweaty balls straining against damp lycra.

Why should men have the right to dominate every space there is? We don’t ask for much privacy. Toilets, hospital beds, prison, maybe exercise. It isn’t much to ask for.

And when women’s spaces are opened up to transwomen, rapists, and perverts with cameras, stroll in too.

“Let’s not rehash where faith as a caveat to equality meets its hard limit.”

That sentence of Zoe’s made me angry. There are NINE protected characteristics, under the Equality Act and religion is one of them. If one protected characteristic is always given priority over another, then that’s not equality, is it?

Nice cherry-picking with the “rehash” link too. To add balance, here’s a link to a much more recent court ruling, but Zoe wouldn’t have liked this one:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2022/jan/06/gay-cake-row-man-loses-seven-year-battle-against-belfast-bakery

At the bottom of each article it has the following:

Susanna Rustin is a Guardian journalist

and

Zoe Williams is a Guardian columnist

Quite.

No man will ever feel threatened by my swimming, but I can report that if you are a competent young woman putting your all into hitting a punchbag in a gym, men will come up to use it on the other side, thus knocking it into your face.

They do not do this to men, and in fact, men only ever tried to use the punchbag when they saw women using it. (I paid careful attention to this, and varied my order of use in gym equipment to confirm it.)

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/nov/18/cycling-organised-mixed-ride-fitness-zoe-williams

Zoe talking about being intimidated with male riders.

I can’t even wrap my head around the person who doesn’t want anybody trans in their aerobics class...

But that's not even correct - it's not 'trans' that's the boundary, it's 'female' -- now, I can understand that if a woman's been on testosterone for a while, she might appear male enough that there is discomfort, but in practise, it's a much smaller problem than mixed sex.

I'm a leisure swimmer, and given a choice of lanes, I'll pick the ones with women in, because yes, the men as a rule are worse to share with - not as good at keeping the splashing down/staying on their side. Some women actually stop and walk past other people in the lane rather than swim (I'm definitely a slow laner), that's how polite they are.

The thing is that I don't feel personally bothered about single sex spaces in many cases- i don't mind mixed swimming/mixed classes etc and i don't mind for example male doctors for smears etc - but thats my personal view and I can understand that other women/men do - why can't she understand that her experience isn't universal.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes that's really interesting.

What’s embarrassing here for Williams is that someone actually sent her the thread by Karon Monaghan, leading equality silk, before she wrote that drivel.
And she couldn’t even get the name of the Act right.