No debate is over at the Guardian

[InvisibleDragon]

Simultaneous release of pieces by Susanna Rustin and Zoe Williams:

Rustin:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/06/labour-policies-trans-women-rights-gender-recognition-act

Williams:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/06/labour-policy-gender-back-trans-rights-boris-johnson

@NotBadConsidering

At the bottom of each article it has the following:

Susanna Rustin is a Guardian journalist

and

Zoe Williams is a Guardian columnist

Quite.

Ha! Yes, perfectly sums up the difference between the two articles.

The Guardian has always prided itself on its motto "Comment is free, facts are sacred." But specifically on the trans issue it has morphed this mantra into "Comment is free association, facts are a nuisance."

@Notcreativeatall

The thing is that I don't feel personally bothered about single sex spaces in many cases- i don't mind mixed swimming/mixed classes etc and i don't mind for example male doctors for smears etc - but thats my personal view and I can understand that other women/men do - why can't she understand that her experience isn't universal.

Because she has no empathy for traditional Muslim women for instance. She has no empathy for shy autistic girls like my daughter who are scared of sharing toilet sinks with men. She has no empathy for women who have suffered from male violence. She thinks Transwomen are the cast of "Pose". She is blissfully unaware of the darker side of kink, she thinks it's 50 Shades of Grey. She doesn't understand stalker mentality, she doesn't listen to women who say no.

She's doing the job of these predatory men for them. She's actively pushing for men to be in our spaces. What privilege for her to not understand why this is wrong.

Apparently The Guardian are organising workplace sessions so their staff can develop the ability to discuss different views on women's rights and trans rights constructively. Actual working journalists having to be taught how to listen to views they don't agree with - the state of them!

Notcreativeatall

why can't she understand that her experience isn't universal.

This is one of Zoe Williams' biggest character flaws. She's done it with a good few subjects, and I now avoid reading her entirely because of it.

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4375493-Im-disappointed-Zoe-Williams-on-language?msgid=111653031#111653031

Zoe Williams is an intelligent woman

I don't think she is particularly. I think her aggressive delivery is cover for that. I think she's had an expensive education and has relied on being opinionated and 'a character' without ever really understanding or working at what it takes to be a good journalist.

@ScribblingPixie

Apparently The Guardian are organising workplace sessions so their staff can develop the ability to discuss different views on women's rights and trans rights constructively. Actual working journalists having to be taught how to listen to views they don't agree with - the state of them!

Ooo, where did you see that?

I agree with you. There aren’t women only spaces anymore in my city as men can declare they are women and enter those spaces. This is a huge step backwards for child and adult human female only services. When I was in the gym changing rooms with a male I stopped going.

Heard it from a friend, teawamutu, but definitely true.

@ScribblingPixie

Apparently The Guardian are organising workplace sessions so their staff can develop the ability to discuss different views on women's rights and trans rights constructively. Actual working journalists having to be taught how to listen to views they don't agree with - the state of them!

Good lord.

Though frankly, I think my workplace could use this, to counter the unconcious bias training that made people feel like they have to go along with whatever wokescolds decide to complain about.

he thing is that I don't feel personally bothered about single sex spaces in many cases- i don't mind mixed swimming/mixed classes etc and i don't mind for example male doctors for smears etc - but thats my personal view and I can understand that other women/men do - why can't she understand that her experience isn't universal

Indeed. And the majority of sports activities are mixed sex so transpeople are not excluded, they can go to the vast majority of activities.

What transwomen cannot do, is go to activities which are for the female sex. I am less bothered about what transmen do but I imagine they don't barge into male spaces and make it all about them (I wonder why).

By the way, there is another article here :unherd.com/2022/04/the-week-the-trans-spell-was-broken/?=frlh

Sorry link didn't work, here it again: unherd.com/2022/04/the-week-the-trans-spell-was-broken/?=frlh

There are mixed sex situations, some quite intimate, that I'm not bothered about either. What I am bothered about is being in a mixed sex environment when I've been told it's single sex.

Zoe Williams is living in a very small bubble.

I went to a women only self defence class in our village hall a couple of years ago - you can definitely see the logic for that.

British Fencing has been co-promoting a very interesting project for a few years now, called "Muslim Girls Fence" (which actually covers a wider remit than fencing) - which is explicitly focused on women and girls, for obvious reasons.

By contrast, a fencing club relatively local to me promoted a "women only" taster session on International Women's Day open to "anyone who identifies as a woman".

@ScribblingPixie

Apparently The Guardian are organising workplace sessions so their staff can develop the ability to discuss different views on women's rights and trans rights constructively. Actual working journalists having to be taught how to listen to views they don't agree with - the state of them!

The Guardian has made corrections to the article "in order to more accurately set out the legal position," as they say at the foot of the article.

This amounts to an admission of a pretty serious mistake in allowing the article to be published as it stood. I do hope that this will lead to further scrutiny at the Guardian of their reporting on this issue.

The article is still problematic, but at least the leal position is clearer.

The Guardian has made corrections to the article "in order to more accurately set out the legal position," as they say at the foot of the article.

To Zoe Williams' article, that is....
Not Susanna Rustin's...

Yes, sorry -- thanks for clarifying my post!

This is why the Williams piece got corrected: twitter.com/anyabike/status/1511962966366867457?s=21

My last gym was women only and it was a big selling point. And it was mainly attended by rich, in your 30s, white women type gym goers so i think Williams imagination is very broken.

Her arrogant posts on Twitter about people's criticism of her article are quite comical really. It doesn't matter how much she fronts it out, the fact that it's been so heavily corrected means everyone - including her editor - can see that it was a total shit show.

I just went to check out her tweets and underneath one of them LOJ says we have most of the media onside!! HAHAHA

My sympathies with the writer who presumably had to put in an extra shift correcting and rewriting Zoe Williams' work while Madam lounged around on Twitter moaning.

For me it it important not to get personal against Zoe Williams. I kind of imagine The Guardian looking at threads like this to get a sense of whether or not they are aequately serving their readership -- and I want to get it through to them that on this issue they have NOT. So I worry that too much hostility might make them discount the many excellent point that have been made against the article.

I don't suppose Zoe Williams is a bad person, and she has strong views on the subject, as we all do. And she is a 'soft' journalist - an opinionist, a fitness writer, a provider of slickly written fillers (that are often quite enjoyable). So perhaps she has got used to churning out smoothy written copy rather than factchecking. It is a bit of a collective failure by the Guardian.