This is a Twofer: man exploiting mixed-sex changing rooms is a Met Police officer

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

You'll often see it said that surely mixed-sex/unisex/gender-neutral facilities cannot be an issue for any of us if they have cubicles.

Well they are an issue. The increased feeling of vulnerability that women report is not just a feeling, it is a reality. Some of you may be aware that Primark has made its changing rooms unisex in order to side-step the issue of whether male transitioners should use female changing rooms.

Since then, I have been seeing Primark's name pop up more regularly in newspaper reports of voyeurism and sexual assault. Not sure if the board have noticed or care.

But this case is more extreme than most.

extract

A Met Police officer has admitted possessing extreme child pornography and filming a woman undressing on his mobile phone in the changing rooms at Primark.

(continues)

The court was told the police officer was arrested on Wednesday after a woman at a Primark shop in Wandsworth heard a rustling sound in the cubicle next door to hers as she tried on clothing.

Prosecutor Hussain Suleman said: 'She looked underneath and saw there was a gap and a black mobile phone with its camera up. She began to scream and said 'are you recording me' She heard a response and he said no.'

Mr Suleman said the woman alerted her boyfriend who called security. Chaudhry was held by security officers until police arrived and he was arrested.

It was then discovered that Chaudhry had a cache of other upskirting videos in his possession. He also had child and bestiality porn.

His home in Wimbledon was searched and police found 50-100 moving and still indecent images of children at category A, the most serious kind. They also found thousands of category B and C images and pornography involving sex with animals.

The images were found on numerous devices in a box on his bedroom shelf, including four USB sticks, two Nokia mobile phones, two storage devices, two laptops and two iPhones.

The 36-year-old faced a total of five charges when he appeared at Wimbledon Magistrates Court this morning following his arrest at a Primark store in Wandsworth, south west London on March 30.

Prosecutor Hussain Suleman told the court Chaudhry could face further charges as electronic devices and mobile phones found in his home have yet to be examined and are suspected of containing more indecent images.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10676217/Met-police-officer-36-caught-filming-woman-undressed-Primark.html

But @SuperSleepyBaby it won’t matter if you’re in Penneys, Dunnes, Arnotts* or any other shop - the changing rooms will be single gender, not single sex. As TENI would explain should you ask, if a heavily-bearded six-foot shining light of the local GAA (or, you know, any other male person, but just to emphasise) were to come into the so-called female changing room, nobody would have any right to question - much less challenge - their presence.

• I can only apologise for my love of a proper department store

I really don't think it is a trans issue and (very small sample since i only know 2) the transwomen i know are as horrified as many women are over this.

It isn't transwomen's fault or desire, afaik, that men are facilitated to prey on women like this. The beneficiaries of being able to say "I'm a women gimme a GRC that says so" are predators.

I know one transman. He transitioned about 8 years ago, took a lot of testosterone, had surgeries (i have not enquired closely about it, I know that one involved a radical mastectomy. I suspect also hysterectomy, not sure about anything else and find it intrusive to ask), He has bulked up, has facial hair and a man-bun. He looks like a bloke. A not particularly tall one, and not super muscled, but he looks like a man. You wouldn't really think "yep, you can always tell, that's a woman" except maybe his hands. But. It is is inconcevable to me that this man should be forced to use women's changing rooms. He wouldn't feel comfortable either. So what do you suggest?

again - i really don't think a (genuine) trans person is the problem. I think opportunist predators are rubbing their hands with glee because there is literally no way to keep them out of women's spaces. While all of the rest of us, women, men, transwomen and transmen, just want to get on with our lives without this shit.

So the problem isn't transwomen, the problem is predatory men taking advantage of the new rules to be ... predatory men.

and

But i do think there is a huge difference between transwomen who had to use the "old route" to getting a GRA (living as a woman for 2 years) over having the ability to say "on Wednesdays i will wear womanhood" and being an abusive creep.

Are you able to tell us how we can tell the difference?

Plus, no one should be basing safeguarding decision on our ''friends'. Safeguarding decisions are based on what the worst outcome is and making processes to ensure that they do not happen.

The boundaries of females and children are being lowered to accommodate another group's needs, the needs of trans people. This does make it a 'trans issue'.

I used the changing rooms in our local Primark recently - I had no idea re the fact they are now mixed use.
What I did notice was that the doors/walls are all a very shiny black, with very little lighting or signage - not in the changing cubibles, those are lighter walls, well lit but the corridor part is very dark and disorientating. I found it really unnerving and quite a challenge to find my way out.

(i am not saying things don't happen, i am just saying I've not experienced it)

How would you know if you had been filmed in a changing room?

Brefugee, the reason all these shops now have mixed sex changing rooms is that trans activists demanded it. In this country all changing rooms were separated by sex, until stonewall decreed it should be done by gender. As that is entirely unworkable, the shops are now plain old mixed sex. The result is an entirely predictable rise in sex crimes, as male predators are given free access. As feminists were trying to explain to the trans activists all these years. If trans people are horrified by this, as they should, they need to raise the voices and start 'not in my name' campaign or similar.

Are you able to tell us how we can tell the difference?

Am i speaking in tongues or something? The problem is Self ID. As long as we are able to have Self ID and are not allowed to even hint at asking for a GRA (or a person in Authority, such as the owner of the toilet/changing room/whatever being allowed to ask for a GRA or other ID) the problem will escalate. Transwomen who currently hold a GRA have gone through a lot of screening to get that. And it is still the case because Self ID is only a thing in people's heads. They want to live peaceful lives and go about their business.

Sexual predators don't give a fuck about anything but getting their kicks. They will either use stealth or they'll do it out in the open. Because as long as nobody "is allowed" to ask them wtf they are doing, they are "hiding" in plain sight.

Not all transwomen or transmen are sexual predators (some may be, but it isn't the fact they are trans that makes them so). Not all trans people are TRAs. Trans people aren't the enemy here.

It is so like the issue of mask wearing in the UK. They weren't compulsory for anyone, because nobody was allowed to ask anyone for proof of exception. In effect the only reason mask wearing went on was because the vast majority believed that it was a) compulsory and b) useful [this is not to derail the discussion into the effacy of mask wearing, it is the same principle though]. It is the same with people who look like men in women's facilities: if you can't ask, you can never know.

I simply do not believe that people like Karen White, Jessica Yaniv or any of the other screeching TRAs really have gender dysphoria, although i can well believe they may have other mental disorders.

I am personally OK with a three space option: Sex based and open to everyone. But i also think we all have to be honest with ourselves (including people who say they are a transwoman but do not conform to any of the female gender stereotypes of, say, a clean shaven face. That is not "living as a female" in my book)

I guess it's complicated.

Also, your friend who's changed their appearance to that of the male should, and probably does, use male spaces, as they are not a danger to men. Female people do not present the same risk to males as the other way around (see MoJ stats on overwhelming number of sex and violent crimes being committed by males). Your friend will, however, be subjecting themselves to an increased risk, but that is their choice.

We're talking at cross purposes.

I am absolutely sure that men pose a threat to women and i prefer them not to be in female spaces.

I do not believe that transwomen who are in possession of a GRC are a threat to women. I do also believe that some religious women would have a problem with a transwoman being in their space when they need to perform ablutions. I'm not entirely sure how to combat this in the current climate in the UK where nobody is allowed to ask (apparently) anyone anything remotely personal.

PP asked upthread how i don't know I haven't been filmed. I don't. I have not been harmed by this lack of knowledge up to now. If it ever came out that i had been filmed, it would be a different story.

Brefugee, your belief that trans women in possession of GRA are not a danger to women is just that, a belief, not shared by many other women. So yes, we may be taking at cross purposes here, as as far as I'm aware, in actual reality, they remain male and offend at the same rate and in the same patterns as all other males.

Also, please see new EHRC guidance - single sex exemptions exclude those in possession of GRC, afaics, that is, trans women simply should not be in the spaces where religious women have there ablutions, whether they have or have not got the GRC.

@Brefugee

OBVIOUSLY there will be men and teen boys behaving badly if there is a gap. It’s just obvious. With or without the Trans issues. Especially given that Primark has a big teen boy market.

I don't think this kind of thing is a trans issue though. As all the "we've been using the ladies for years" conversations show - transwomen have been around for a long time. It isn't about retorting back "we can always tell" it is about the fact that up to now it hasn't been a problem for the most part. Because in that respect they want to get in and out and use the loos/changing rooms in the same way everyone else does.

The problem is, as i see it, the fact that if we say "anyone can say they are a woman and use female sexed facilities" then we leave everything open to people not being challenged on using these facilities, and getting their kicks that way because nobody, including any transwomen who are there, can challenge them.

So the problem isn't transwomen, the problem is predatory men taking advantage of the new rules to be ... predatory men.

I know that there are other issues around people using single sex female facilities as a transwoman that mean some groups of women can no longer use them, and we need to find a sensible way around that. But i do think there is a huge difference between transwomen who had to use the "old route" to getting a GRA (living as a woman for 2 years) over having the ability to say "on Wednesdays i will wear womanhood" and being an abusive creep.

There is a way forward, but there need to be grown up conversations where the extremists are not given room to talk at any great length. Right now i can't see it happening.

FWIW: i'm in small-town Germany. Even when i go to large-city Germany and go to C&A for my jeans, the changing rooms are not single sex, but there are changing rooms in, say, the section with lingerie etc, so you could imagine they're single sex. But they aren't. Occasionally i see men go in them to try things on (never seen someone try on frillies though) and they deffo go in to sit on the seats to see what their wives/gfs try on. But i have never yet encountered a problem. Women wearing Hijabs also use the spaces so I'm going to assume that for at least some Muslim women it's ok.

(i am not saying things don't happen, i am just saying I've not experienced it)

It's an issue for the majority of Muslim women but they 1) have no choice but to use mixed sex spaces when there is nothing else and 2) keep their mouths shut on this issue because there is such a negative perception of Muslims speaking about LGBTQ issues. Most Muslim women do not want to be called a bigot or transphobic so will remain silent about this in public.

@Brefugee

We're talking at cross purposes.

I am absolutely sure that men pose a threat to women and i prefer them not to be in female spaces.

I do not believe that transwomen who are in possession of a GRC are a threat to women. I do also believe that some religious women would have a problem with a transwoman being in their space when they need to perform ablutions. I'm not entirely sure how to combat this in the current climate in the UK where nobody is allowed to ask (apparently) anyone anything remotely personal.

PP asked upthread how i don't know I haven't been filmed. I don't. I have not been harmed by this lack of knowledge up to now. If it ever came out that i had been filmed, it would be a different story.

As we cannot ask them if they have a GRC, how do you propose we keep the unsafe men out exactly?

I do not believe that transwomen who are in possession of a GRC are a threat to women

There are no safeguards built into the GRC process. convictions for sexual offending, violence or dishonesty do not prevent a GRC being issued.

I didn't at all say I'm in favour of not being able to ask for a GRC. I think that we should be able to challenge people.
I thin Self ID is a shit idea that will give predatory men more chances to indulge their whims

I do think that there is a huge tension between the requirements of women who need (for whatever reason) a single sex space and the requirements of transwomen. And in this case my preference is for there to be a 3rd space and for transwomen to extend the women who want a single sex space the courtesy of using it.

I also don't believe TWAW - i believe transwomen are transwomen. I don't believe you can change sex. But i do recognise that there is genuine gender dysphoria. I think it is a fetish by many many people as well as a way to get in women's spaces.

Third space solution was suggested by everyone, from feminists to conservatives, and deemed transphobic by all the vocal trans rights activists. Try it on twitter, you'll be deemed a transphobic bigot and terf in approx. 30 secs with someone with an anime picture and a trans flag in their profile. Mumsnet will be here to hold your hand and reassure you that you're not an evil witch

oh yes i know. And this is why i always say there won't be an answer because there can't be a grown up conversation about it.

Are the trans women you know not grown ups? Women are very capable of grownup conversations, as even this small corner of Mumsnet proves, but the trans movement seems to be led by dogmatic and frequently unpleasant characters. Where are the grown up trans women who know their sex and don't want to harm women. What are they doing, are they campaigning, organizing, anything?

TRAs don't want the conversation as you have correctly identified. The transwomen i know are keeping their heads down and trying to avoid the kind of targetted hate that transwomen online (Debbie Hayes?) are getting for saying the same things i am.

Don't be disingenuous. We know who is causing the problem. The question is: how can we stop it.

Only asking because all the 'trans' people I know are children or young adults who've been sucked into this madness, and it makes me really angry on behalf of teenage girls. Several young adult ex-school mates if my daughter have cut off their breasts and are on T, it makes me weep, they were beautiful, bright, wretched teenage girls when they had all those sleepovers here

Sorry, wasn't trying to be disingenuous, as my later post maybe explained. 'We' are stopping it any way we can, through campaigns and crowdfunding, letters to MPs, schools etc. Women put their heads above the parapet and their livelihoods on the line to achieve the current situation where the gender dogma is starting to be challenged. What else are women supposed to do? If trans people don't agree with what's being done in the name it's time they do the same as women have done. Women have been used as human shields by trans people long enough, time to challenge male intolerance I'm afraid. Women will help where possible, if they want to.

I think I hear what you are saying Brefugee. However, I sense that you are trying to convince people that those transitioned males who may have a GRC have gone through some magical screening.

That is where I disagree with you. And I still ask 'Are you able to tell us how we can tell the difference?'

I don't agree with you that going through that process means that any transitioned male is safer than any other male. I do agree that there will be those who will abuse the system though as we have already seen.

But I do agree that third spaces are the answer, and I am still waiting for confirmation from a transitioned male poster on this site to get back to me whether we can have the confidence that transitioned males will respect female single sex spaces once they realise that it causes some females distress to have them use those single sex spaces.

Like many times this question has been asked, I suspect the answer will be a long time in coming. Because those extreme activist posters cannot assure us at all.

I've tweeted primark with the article. I don't hold out any hope. .....

I'm pretty sure that a lot of passing transwomen don't really pass close scrutiny and people who say they are are being kind.
I could be wrong but i thought that Self ID isn't yet a thing? (I'm not in UK) and that anyone with a GRC has gone through the screening, therapy and maybe also some surgeries? In that they will have had to "live in their chosen gender" for 2 years at least before getting a GRC? I don't know if any of my friends have them, i have never asked. tbh we don't talk about trans issues as such rather than politics in general.

Time will tell i suppose, but in the meantime there are a lot of things that are extremely shitty. Male predators taking advantage of the current mess is one of the really shitty ones.

Despite the insistence from TRA that the route to getting a GRC is the most oppressive difficult thing ever which is why they don’t bother, it’s no more onerous than many bureaucratic processes in the UK

Living as their chosen gender means in reality producing something like a utility bill in a female name as no one can define what is meant by “living as” beyond gender stereotypes. Oh and using womens toilets and changing rooms is seen as a mark of “living as” which seems somewhat circuitous. Proving you have a right to use female spaces by using female spaces in advance…..