Gender argument - caught in the middle

[Baggingarea]

I feel totally caught in the middle in this brave new world of gender ID and I guess I’m just looking for somewhere to vent without getting piled on.

I just think the argument has become so unbelievably divided that there’s no room for mediation any more.

On the one hand I see a mean girls club basically bullying trans women online and selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves. Like surely there should be some debate and policy making going on. You can’t have trans women dominating womens sports as they have an unfair advantage. Professional bodies should be having serious conversations about this.

In terms of changing rooms etc we need to make sure everyone is happy and feels comfortable. Personally I hate changing in front of others regardless of their gender at birth - why can’t we more provision for individual changing rooms for both men and women?

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

I just hate how I can’t feel like I can’t say these things publicly without being branded a terf or a gender traitor. Stifling debate like this is not healthy!

ribbony feartie. Love it!

His blatant women hatred - not so much

I understand what you mean about wanting to be kind to individual transman and transwoman. I'd be on the side of anyone who needs kindness / support in upholding their normal human rights ...but cannot #bekind if it means pretending that it is possible for anyone to actually change sex.

TWATW and TMATM - I'm fine with that and can accept the desired change of pronouns/names - even (or perhaps especially) when (as so far has always been the case) there is no chance of the individual 'passing' for the opposite sex.

(Any clothing/make-up/hairstyling/colour choice is fine - regardless of whether trans or not. Why wouldn't it be? I've never thought that any particular clothing or style should be exclusively for one sex. )

I think that 1 side is bullying individuals (with serious threats and name-calling and attempting to get them sacked) for questioning the new dogma. It is making being kind much harder. It is entrenching the two sides.

The other side is sometimes said to be bullying when they state their views about groups (transwomen or transmen). Questioning or debate is referred to as assault. This is not reasonable and is not bullying.

Some individual trans people are being singled out in ways that could be called bullying. Lisa Thomas is being picked out and I think this is very tough on her. However, she is taking a woman's place and this is not right - even if it is allowed at present. It is difficult to accept the unfairness she is party to, and not point it out. Leaving her unquestioned is treating her competitors (those who have trained long and hard) very badly. (Would this be as wrong as bullying?)

As you say - sports organisations are at fault. Why are they not acting to uphold fair competiton? It seems that they are afraid of the TRAs and the power they hold at the moment. (They are not afraid of women - GC or not.)

@VelvetChairGirl

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

sorry but I dont buy it, trans women are a subset of men, they choose to present in a culturally different way same as punks and goths etc and as such they have the same protection in UK law as everyone else to their freedom of expression etc.

that doesn't give them the right to muscle other people out of their rights, there is no top trumps, grow up.

This is right. TWATW - and male with all the advantages that brings.

In regards to women's sport it is actually very interesting to watch a webinar with Mianne Biggar who was responsible for changing the golf championship rules in the 00s. They now look at what they were responsible for and understand that it was wrong. But at the time, there was no direct studies that could be used so it was all about the feelings of these athletes.

There was an Australian based rugby player (Caroline Flack I think) who played state championship rugby without telling their coach or team mates. They eventually told the coach but I don't think they told their team mates. That player won a state award meant for females. This was again in the 00s. So, even worse. Think of the negative sexist discrimination that the females had faced to get there vs that player's opportunities throughout life.

That is not even including the number of women that faced increased health risks because of this person's inclusion. And still Australian Rugby has made no clear steps to follow the World Rugby guidelines, unless they have since I last checked.

I’m not sure there’s much of a middle ground really. If you don’t believe that TWAW there’s not much you can do about that really. I believe women should have the right to services/spaces/sports separate from men. This doesn’t feel like an extreme position to me and it’s only really been perceived by others as an extreme position in the last 10 years.

Women express these views in different ways some perhaps more eloquently or “kindly” than others but generally most are coming from a similar position.

Something that the recent Maya Forstater case really highlighted to me was that there is no way that women are able to express this opinion and not be called a terf or a bigot. Maya is very articulate and reasonable and she lost her employment because she doesn’t think that humans can change their sex. The only way she could have been “kinder” is to not say anything about it at all.

So women are probably getting a bit more shouty and assertive because nobody is actually listening. It’s frustrating that the EB situation had to go all the way to 3 days before the race before someone put a stop to it. Think about all the female racers and the stress and frustration they must have been going through. Honestly boggles my mind.

But happily more and more women are starting to say “no” and sometimes this will be perceived by some as being unkind but it is really just women reasserting our boundaries. It is necessary and long overdue.

@Baggingarea

But I’m saying both sides are being badly behaved. You all attacking me doesn’t exactly change my mind.

Also you are taking what I’m saying and leaping to conclusions. I didn’t say anything about saying it’s mean to say you can’t change sex. I’m saying that bullying individuals online is very mean girls. You are entitled to your views but then so am I. I believe trans women are trans women. It’s madness not to acknowledge that (and probably something that will get me labelled a terf).

But you aren't being attacked. You are being disagreed with, pointedly. It can feel like an attack, yes, due to the medium. But it isn't an attack.

I will believe TWAW when someone can give me a definition of woman that would include all women and all transwomen and exclude all men and transmen and does not report to sexist stereotypes. Until the TWATW and TWATM

Not sure why I should Be Kind to a side that tells me to suck a ladydick and shut up. Just because I think TWATW and TMATM

Yes, apparently the female socialisation of being kind and nice seems to have skipped some people who wish to be known as women.

@MyLittlePhonyPony

the opposing sides are too extreme for me and I haven't found many discussions helpful. It's complicated and currently it seems impossible to reach a balance.

It's impossible to reach a balance because that is not what trans lobby groups etc are asking for.

And any balance on women's part would involve protecting vulnerable women such as rape victims, DV survivors so any compromise made won't satisfy the demands for validation.

It's only made complicated by trying to find a middle ground that doesn't exist.

The middle ground that everyone would be happy is one that many GC feminists support. Good services and healthcare for trans people. Dignity, protection in law but as trans people of their biological sex. Basic safeguarding of children, with the same care and diligence to their needs regardless of whether they are trans or not.

But this is rejected time and again because it is a so called extreme view.

Yes. What is the middle ground between:

'it's possible to change sex' and 'sex is immutable'?

Feminists argue the latter - I can't concede it's 'a bit possible' to change sex anymore than I can concede it's 'a bit possible' to teleport.

In terms of the pragmatic ground we can beat out between two inherently exclusive positions, there are compromises like third spaces. Interestingly, I think many transpeople are happy with third spaces, but as we know, the most vociferous voices are often not trans themselves, but 'allies'.

And actually, BC/UCI have not stopped EB from competing, if I understand correctly, but have said that EB cannot compete in the female races this year.

I was just reading in the DM that the female cyclists threatened to boycott the race if EB took part so I wonder if they are just using this as an excuse to kick the can down the road. Good news though if female athletes are threatening boycotts. Might focus the minds of the men running these organisations.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10671179/Trans-cyclist-Emily-Bridges-BARRED-national-championships.html

@Crcohetmonster

I will believe TWAW when someone can give me a definition of woman that would include all women and all transwomen and exclude all men and transmen and does not report to sexist stereotypes. Until the TWATW and TWATM

I am not one to usually post twitter threads, but you might like this particular one.

twitter.com/Hungrybeeeater/status/1506086672039034886?s=20&t=X-tFE30I1GpBMFmJ57PgvQ

Dr Rachel Ruysch asks a question that she said would not get answered. And it didn't.

I can name 1000 things shared by most women and no trans women…the notion that something must be shared by all cis women is a STRAW MAN& misunderstands the notion of categories! You name just 1 thing trans women are more likely than other males to have in common with females.

It was quite interesting to watch the twists.

I am not one to usually post twitter threads, but you might like this particular one.

I read that last night. Very funny! 🤩

Did KM actually. Cite one of KMs own articles as a gotcha? That’s actually quite sad in a funny kind of way.

KM did!

Because Montgomery felt they needed more than a tweet or two to get their points across. I mean, Montgomery was trying to explain their thinking to an academic to be fair. The academic must not have found it very compelling because the academic did not discuss it.

Either way, no tweets that actually provided an answer.

I have reached my limit of 'be kind'. Stickers on lampposts saying 'women won't wheesht' were investigated by Kirkcaldy Police as a hate crime. The attached image is a lamppost on the Meadows in Edinburgh. I'm taking a wild guess that the most that will happen is that The City of Edinburgh Council might send someone to scrub it off (largely due to the profanity and the fact there's a School nearby). There will be no investigation into a slur against women (with violent overtones) - totally cool, apparently.

But 'women won't wheesht' is just too horrendous to be bourne.

@Helleofabore

KM did!

Because Montgomery felt they needed more than a tweet or two to get their points across. I mean, Montgomery was trying to explain their thinking to an academic to be fair. The academic must not have found it very compelling because the academic did not discuss it.

Either way, no tweets that actually provided an answer.

KM is a plonker. I’m going to write an article explaining this and if anyone on Twitter disagrees, I’m just going to cite my own article.

That would be brilliant.

'Here is my article regarding the general numptiness of KM'

'I disagree, you meanie! You're wrong.'

'I'm afraid you'll find that Crochetmonster (2022) disagrees with you.'

'But that's your article!'

'And it's peer reviewed. My cat gave it serious thought and made some excellent points'

Yes!!! I’m off to write this now.

*Dr Rachel Ruysch asks a question that she said would not get answered. And it didn't.

I can name 1000 things shared by most women and no trans women…the notion that something must be shared by all cis women is a STRAW MAN& misunderstands the notion of categories! You name just 1 thing trans women are more likely than other males to have in common with females.*

I can answer this succinctly if it helps? Jack. Shit.

I suppose I can understand some of what op is saying. I am not on Twitter really anymore but I was for a while and I definitely saw a fair few women who were encouraging each other to "report" some TRAS to their bosses, it was often regarding what that person had said in a reply tweet, this felt to me very similar to what the TRAs do to women and in some cases possibly justified but in others not so much.

I have without doubt seem a fair few (GC) women being incredibly rude/nasty/unpleasant to trans people, not just factual ie TW are men, but talking about them being a plastic Barbie, getting personal about their appearance, 5 o'clock shadow. I don't see any need to get so personal.

So I can see the insults etc.. on both sides, but when you look at both sides they aren't really comparable as one is being rude, the other is threatening death and rape threats.

I do have an issue with only having toilets by biological sex because there are TM that look male and in some cases (although rarer) there are TW who could pass as female. Whilst the view when presented with the question of TM in women's toilet's is usually answered with "well they're female so they are welcome" in reality if I came face to face with some TM I would feel very uncomfortable because to me they look male. Third spaces is the only answer and we know how that suggestion has gone down, so if third spaces won't be accepted what's the answer?

The other thing that I struggle with is what do people here really think will happen in the end?
Considering trans people are in fact using the spaces of the opposite sex, and most of us here want TW out of ours, is it realistic to think we will succeed? We can argue for it all we like, and I think we absolutely have the argument for it to happen, more places across the world are bringing in self id, is it realistic to think we can ever get our rights back?

The other thing that I struggle with is what do people here really think will happen in the end?
Considering trans people are in fact using the spaces of the opposite sex, and most of us here want TW out of ours, is it realistic to think we will succeed? We can argue for it all we like, and I think we absolutely have the argument for it to happen, more places across the world are bringing in self id, is it realistic to think we can ever get our rights back?

The suffragettes did not give up or lose hope so I try and stay positive and think that we may be able to regain some female rights in the future. This whole debacle has shown just how much entrenched male privilege exists and how threatening it is to disagree with what men think should happen. That itself is scary.

is it realistic to think we can ever get our rights back?
Certainly not if Labour or any other pro self I'd parties get in, but at the moment there is very little law in England (real law not Stonewall law) that backs up any of the batshit stuff that's been happening.

That's been down to individual captured institutions and their wilful application of the law. If this is tackled, and I do believe it will come to a head soon, with detransioners and key safeguarding cases highlighting it, rowing back will be a fairly simple task of just following and applying the actual law.

I mean, realistically, yes it is bleak as it is a fairly powerful group (men) against women. But we have to try so we can look future women in the face.

Sky News interviewed a transwoman Joanna Harper this morning. JH is a researcher at Loughborough university, studying transgender athletes. JH also served on the IOC (international Olympic committee) advising on the inclusion of transwomen in women’s sports.

In the interview, JH discussed Lia Thomas’ participation in the NCAA races. As LT had won and lost some races since identifying as a transwoman, JH said something along the lines that LT is therefore able to engage in meaningful competition. I didn’t record that bit, but the following is being transmitted pretty much every hour:
“Testosterone is the single most important factor that differentiates male athletes from female athletes. So no, if somebody has much higher testosterone than typical female values they shouldn’t be allowed to be in a women’s division. The trickier question is what to do with transwomen who used to have high testosterone but now have testosterone in the female range. I personally think in most instances transwomen, who have suppressed their testosterone can engage in meaningful competition with other women, but that is not a proven thing yet and there is much research and discussion that needs to take place.”

I have read on here many times that there are differences that cannot be overcome by reducing testosterone. The Guardian, traditionally very pro trans backed this up and published an article stating transwomen have a 12% advantage 2 years after transitioning. www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

Where’s the balance in the Sky news broadcast? And if there is no balance, how can there be anything in the middle?

is it realistic to think we can ever get our rights back?

What is the alternative?

Giving up and going along with female people with inconvenient needs that used to be protected just being excluded from society, shunned, without accessible health care or rape crisis care or refuge from dangerous relationships? Having a two tier society that includes Untouchables that have to pay the same tax but pay it for other people to have things denied to them?

A society in which female people's safety, needs, reality comes second to the freedom of self expression of male people? And where any male person is entitled to use female people and their spaces as resources to meet their own needs with, regardless of impact? For females to be a kind of lower status group in law to males?

Would you mind if your right to vote went next or would you say we all just need to realistically accept that and know our places too? Your right not be raped by your husband? Your right to own property? Which rights are your red line? You're probably going to need to know, because you would be nuts to think that this agenda has all it wants now and this is as much as it will try to take from women.

And are you ok with BAME rights being rolled back? Disabled rights? Children's rights? Animal rights? Whose rights are disposable once a fashionable group makes sufficient noise and we're stuck in a rotten decade with politicians lacking a single grownup or principle anywhere amongst them?

This is not a world I'm willing to live in. Or to hand on to the girls growing up in this mess.