Gender argument - caught in the middle

[Baggingarea]

I feel totally caught in the middle in this brave new world of gender ID and I guess I’m just looking for somewhere to vent without getting piled on.

I just think the argument has become so unbelievably divided that there’s no room for mediation any more.

On the one hand I see a mean girls club basically bullying trans women online and selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves. Like surely there should be some debate and policy making going on. You can’t have trans women dominating womens sports as they have an unfair advantage. Professional bodies should be having serious conversations about this.

In terms of changing rooms etc we need to make sure everyone is happy and feels comfortable. Personally I hate changing in front of others regardless of their gender at birth - why can’t we more provision for individual changing rooms for both men and women?

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

I just hate how I can’t feel like I can’t say these things publicly without being branded a terf or a gender traitor. Stifling debate like this is not healthy!

Had a discussion with three young men on mothers day (2 are mine) about trans rights

Got slightly heated at points but all three appreciated the unfairness of males in female sports…we just differed on the solution

And it only occurred to me the next day that the main reason we didn’t agree was because at least 1 of them saw trans women as a subset of women hence the ‘unfairness’ to transwomen when i said sex based sports

So you agree that third spaces have been suggested by those you have deemed not moderate enough in their opinions/actions?

I just find it particularly galling that you are willing to criticize women defending sex based rights, yet when called upon to defend your opinion or expand your argument you hide behind your 'lack of knowledge'.

So you are happy to tell others they are doing it wrong, without having any understanding or intention to model correct activist behaviour yourself.

Feels a bit mansplainy.

And while I get they want the word women. You then get prominent activists stating things like 'we are now accepted as women, it is discrimination to not accept us as female'. I am paraphrasing but that is what a now ex-academic US cyclist transitioner declared not so long ago.

Accepting 'purity' of thought that transitioned males are women leads to the next boundary creep. It is in action already.

Here is another example.

KatyMontgomerie Mar23 on Twitter:

There isn't anything shared by all cis women and by no trans women. Given that, the only remaining reason for that belief is ignorance and/or irrational prejudice

This is a social media influencer who posters often will even try to use as an appeal to authority. And this is what they are saying.

It is this purity that will side line any reasonable alternatives proffered up.

There is a rape survivor who has posted on here about how her rape crisis centre (I believe it was?) had a women's, men's and trans group. Trans women wanted to use the women's group so the women who wanted female- only got nothing, and were called bigots on top.

There are so many instances of this. You are naive to think that offering a 3rd space without single-sex spaces is the answer, because it's been tried, and it isn't.

I can think of many things shared by all women and no transwomen….

Feels a bit mansplainy.

To be fair, it is 'tone policing' in nature.

Sorry @Artichokeleaves I see you mentioned the rape services.

@Baggingarea

I have had my arse handed to me but I can’t apologise for how I feel. Thank you to the people who have taken time to discuss issues with me - even if you strongly disagree.

My views of sharing some spaces with transwomen are not as strict as some other women. I would feel ok with sharing work loos with a transwoman colleague for example

However women's rights aren't mine to give away and I realise that my approach would make the loos unusable for some of my Muslim colleagues and others who would not feel able to share in those circumstances.

I cannot countenance penises in womens refuges, prisons, showers etc. I may feel less concerned about bodies that have fully transitioned, but again these are not my rights to give away.

A no always trumps any number of yeses and therefore women will continue to fight for single sex spaces to protect the dignity and safety of all.

It's ok to have divergent thinking, women aren't a homogeneous group. As long as you can accept others views and note that others may have needs that you don't have then surely it's ok to have a reasonable discussion.

However in my experience there is not very much reasoned debate from some tra extremists which can result in more people become entrenched and committed to single sex spaces.

People that still want to invade a single sex space whilst knowing they are unwelcome and causing fear are probably the exact people women are most afraid of. Someone that chooses to ignore women's boundaries, concerns and fears in preference to their own desires doesn't sound very kind or nice.

Eto be honest I think the whole, " We need to be more moderate, we need to be understanding of trans issues whilst championing women's interests" is symptomatic of how one sided this power struggle is.

I've never ever seen a trans person preface anything they've written with I understand women are vulnerable because xyz, unless they are replying to a specific point about xyz. Even then it's usually so they can play the oppression Olympics and claims trans people have it worse.

Whereas women are most anxious to preface any sentences or thoughts with concern and sympathy for trans people.

It might be female socialisation talking but for a lot of us it's fear that anything other than making it 💯 clear we consider trans people's feelings is construed as transphobia.

It's actually exhausting having to pander simple, direct thoughts in this way and is just another way we are silenced.

So you agree that third spaces have been suggested by those you have deemed not moderate enough in their opinions/actions?
I just find it particularly galling that you are willing to criticize women defending sex based rights, yet when called upon to defend your opinion or expand your argument you hide behind your 'lack of knowledge'.
So you are happy to tell others they are doing it wrong, without having any understanding or intention to model correct activist behaviour yourself.
Feels a bit mansplainy.

I don't know if you're confusing me with another poster or not, but I haven't told anyone that they're doing anything wrong, nor have I criticized anyone, or policed anyone's tone? I believe that there is room for discussion in order to come to a middle ground - if you take any criticism, policing of tone or accusations of wrongdoing from that then there's not really anything I can do..

I will not throw around an extensive version of my opinion when I have openly admitted that it's not a fully formed one, that I don't have loads of knowledge on the issue and more, that seems a particularly stupid thing to do. If asked my opinion, as I was then I will give it, whilst at the same time saying I'm a "newbie". I really don't see the issue with that.

I think the main criticism of me is I’m saying being gender critical isn’t very nice. I have never said that nor do I believe that. All I’m saying is there is a lot of behaviour that goes on that belittles any serious discussion by slagging off individuals. I’ve also said I don’t think trans women in womens sport should be allowed but the onus should be on the pro bodies to change the rules not the players. Maybe I wasn’t clear and I take that on board. Since I posted British cycling has stopped Emily Bridges from competing.

I didn’t suggest third spaces or that trans women should be allowed to walk about naked in changing rooms. Again that is pp leaping to conclusions. I do believe we need more private and individual spaces in changing rooms. I personally don’t feel comfortable being naked in front of women or men I don’t know. And I believe this would go some way to reduce friction sari is these areas.

One pp said that I’m not dealing in facts. Who made the rules that I should deal in facts and not emotions? Others have said I should go elsewhere to have these discussions. I’m only a mumsnet member.

I do feel a little like some (not all) members were quick to assume the worst of a newbie and imply I’m a bimbo for my views. I now know there is history to this that I wasn’t aware of but still think in general jumping to conclusions or making assumptions rather than seeking clarification is a waste of time for everyone and just causes disagreements.

I’m glad some people see what I was trying to say albeit clumsily.

Hi @Baggingarea I am more in the middle also and have stopped posting on here about trans because the opposing sides are too extreme for me and I haven't found many discussions helpful. It's complicated and currently it seems impossible to reach a balance.
I've almost fallen out with friends about it - at both extremes - but I know I don't know everything so I now avoid any discussion.
I just watch and listen now. With obvious exceptions

I've never ever seen a trans person preface anything they've written with I understand women are vulnerable because xyz, unless they are replying to a specific point about xyz. Even then it's usually so they can play the oppression Olympics and claims trans people have it worse.

Whereas women are most anxious to preface any sentences or thoughts with concern and sympathy for trans people.

It might be female socialisation talking but for a lot of us it's fear that anything other than making it 💯 clear we consider trans people's feelings is construed as transphobia.

It's actually exhausting having to pander simple, direct thoughts in this way and is just another way we are silenced.

Completely agree. Some things are just nothing to do with these people but they must be constantly centred.

@tabbycatstripy

Don’t worry. None of this makes you sound like a terf. You’re off the island and in the clear blue water.

Proper made me lol.

the opposing sides are too extreme for me and I haven't found many discussions helpful. It's complicated and currently it seems impossible to reach a balance.

It's impossible to reach a balance because that is not what trans lobby groups etc are asking for.

And any balance on women's part would involve protecting vulnerable women such as rape victims, DV survivors so any compromise made won't satisfy the demands for validation.

It's only made complicated by trying to find a middle ground that doesn't exist.

The middle ground that everyone would be happy is one that many GC feminists support. Good services and healthcare for trans people. Dignity, protection in law but as trans people of their biological sex. Basic safeguarding of children, with the same care and diligence to their needs regardless of whether they are trans or not.

But this is rejected time and again because it is a so called extreme view.

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

sorry but I dont buy it, trans women are a subset of men, they choose to present in a culturally different way same as punks and goths etc and as such they have the same protection in UK law as everyone else to their freedom of expression etc.

that doesn't give them the right to muscle other people out of their rights, there is no top trumps, grow up.

'Female humans have rights too' is not an extremist position.

Since I posted British cycling has stopped Emily Bridges from competing.

British Cycling didn’t stop EB from competing UCI did.

You are right that the conversation around sports is unpleasant for the TW as well.

However, you'll see on other boards (every day) dilemmas about how to handle a disappointed child who isn't invited to a party. The solution is never to force the party host to make room.

Managing expectations is also a way to avoid this upset. Clear rules that say "nobody born male will ever compete in female sports," is actually kinder than the flip flopping kind of approach. Kinder for everyone.

I actually think it's closer to the real meaning of transphobia to give people with trans identities less clear and honest advice, to get their unrealistic hopes up, to allow them to muddle up their medical notes so they get sex-inappropriate care, to tell them that lesbians will date them so go ahead and cut bits off (everyone else merits real informed consent) etc.

This is the easy option, not the caring one, the caring one is telling people the truth, even if it is hard.

I’ve also said I don’t think trans women in womens sport should be allowed but the onus should be on the pro bodies to change the rules not the players

Are you denying that trans people can have the agency or morals not to compete unfairly against women.

Sounds a bit transphobic to me.
Good thing this is Mumsnet and not Twitter eh?

@Signalbox

Since I posted British cycling has stopped Emily Bridges from competing.

British Cycling didn’t stop EB from competing UCI did.

And actually, BC/UCI have not stopped EB from competing, if I understand correctly, but have said that EB cannot compete in the female races this year.

EB could still race in the correct class for his sex and if he did I might even make the trip to Derby to go and support a true trailblazer.

The ribbony feartie is currently talking about discrimination on Twitter and in particular the single sex exemptions in the Equality Act 2010. Apparently 'discrimination is fine in certain circumstances' (such as blue badge holders) but in relation to any single sex exemptions (which include rape crisis centres and prisons) is totally unacceptable. Discrimination is bad. Apart from when it's not.

So exemptions are fine for all the other protected characteristics but not for women.

But it's not targeted...at all. No. (Look a squirrel!)

@Artichokeleaves

'Female humans have rights too' is not an extremist position.

And neither is 'sex is immutable' (not that you'd know that from recent court cases).

WIth regards to the TW in women's sports, it might have been Maxine Blythe, or maybe the rugby player (whose name escapes me) who basically said they knew it was unfair / morally cheating but what could they do? They just wanted to pee play sport as their authentic selves.

It certainly is a conundrum, but sometimes in life we have to make decisions that aren't all round wonderful for us. If playing competitive sport is more important than being your authentic self, delay your transition. If the transition is more important, accept that you are not eligible to play on the opposite sex team. Sexed bodies play sports, gender identities do not.

Safeguarding is about envisaging the worst case scenario and doing what you can to avoid it.
Given that the worst case scenario is happening with alarming regularity when men are allowed to self-ID as women AND anyone raising the alarm is called a bigot, do you think people should stop raising the alarm.