To wonder why an MP is lying about womens bathrooms?

[TeaKlaxon]

Lucy Allen has tweeted that the Barbican has mens bathrooms and gender neutral bathrooms, but no womens bathrooms.

Lots of twitter users told her that was wrong.

The Barbican itself told her it's wrong.

But the tweet remains. AIBU to think that if an MP gets something wrong, they should apologise and remove the lie? Or to think that this is deliberate misinformation to further the myth of women being 'erased'?

twitter.com/lucyallan/status/1507076111871713282?s=20&t=D_TGgQBlnKkKZ6NEIjnzsw

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

It is the tactic to paint women who disagree with changing toilets into mixed sex only as middle class, white, middle aged women. And it fails whenever anyone starts to point out evidence and starts to unravel that tired old trope

I was waiting for that card to be played, too.

If London arts centres and theatres will find it easily financially viable to do without income from gender-critical feminists and women who want single-sex toilets, as Tea has claimed they will, then that suggests that trans activists/people who prioritise trans inclusion above all other else must be extremely monied.

I've always thought so, but it was nice to see Tea confirm it. Pretty funny to see Tea sprinting for the "you're middle class and don't know about electricity meters" button within a few pages of proudly claiming that theatres could survive on the trans activist pound alone.

I love this weird dichotomy.

In your world the only customers a theatre might have as mythical 'trans activists' or gender crits.

The sad, sad truth is that most people - including most women - don't give a shit about your weird little witch hunts about every venue that you deem to be insufficiently hostile to trans people.

90% of a theatre's customers will not base their decision to go there on its toilet policy. They will go because they, y'know, want to see whatever show or exhibition is on etc.

If you lot could only see how profoundly irrelevant you are to most people who do not spend their time obsessing about toilets, you might stop imagining that anyone will care about your little boycott. I'd quite welcome the safe knowledge that someone I got chatting to in the queue of a bar at the theatre isn't a secret transphobe.

Oh Marg you are so very late to this party... and look, what you shoehorned in

If this is to do with transpeople, then that's something to take up with the Equality Act 2010

Not quite the issue is it? We are, as ever, discussing women's rights.

She was laughed at for asking where the ladies toilets were - whether you choose to believe it or not. Can you imagine the ushers response if she followed that up with 'can I speak to the manager?' based on the stereotype you've suggested this woman fits in?

I love this weird dichotomy.

Pity you don't love a basic dictionary - see my earlier post

90% of a theatre's customers will not base their decision to go there on its toilet policy. They will go because they, y'know, want to see whatever show or exhibition is on etc.

Based on what research, opinion polls etc?

Or are you making that up, aka lying ?

@girlmom21

She was laughed at for asking where the ladies toilets were - whether you choose to believe it or not. Can you imagine the ushers response if she followed that up with 'can I speak to the manager?' based on the stereotype you've suggested this woman fits in?

FFS - yeah that's it. She didn't complain because she thought she might be thought badly of. Rather than because making up a cock and bull story to an MP with a history of lying is an easier way to push an agenda.

Meanwhile, when I asked for my burger without cheese recently, it came with cheese anyway and the server scoffed at me when I asked for a new one. I was going to complain to the manager but I now see i should be complaining to my MP. Because that is totally normal behaviour...

90% of a theatre's customers will not base their decision to go there on its toilet policy. They will go because they, y'know, want to see whatever show or exhibition is on etc.

You are quite correct however, they might not go back if they have a poor experience.

You're half-right. Most people don't have any idea about the issue, imo. But when I casually mention the prospect of mixed-sex toilets to most women who don't use social media, they have opinions about that! They really, really do.

And if they ever do end up in a theatre that charges £30-70 a ticket (like one place already discussed) and find the toilet provision inadequate, they won't much want to repeat the experience!

If you think you're not a Tory but are just cosying up to them because you think owning the trans is more important than upending the destructive right wing agenda the Tories have implemented for 12 years, then you still don't have the credibility to lecture anyone about the interests of women.

Sigh... it continues.

Now feminists are 'owning the trans'. Hands up any poster on this board who which to 'own the trans' rather than simply maintain the rights and protections for women and children where they come into conflict with another group's rights?

Anyone? Any takers?

No?

Another tactic. This one is the cognitive distortion of 'Polarisation.' Or as I like to call it absolutism fuckery.

This tactic also seeks to separate out the female trans people that we seek to ensure get to keep their protections and rights that they need as they too have a female sexed body. So, it is also another misdirection and misrepresentation.

Speaking of which, OP, you seem very low on credibility to be lecturing anyone.

@SamphiretheStickerist

90% of a theatre's customers will not base their decision to go there on its toilet policy. They will go because they, y'know, want to see whatever show or exhibition is on etc.

Based on what research, opinion polls etc?

Or are you making that up, aka lying ?

Based on living in the factual world and talking to people and knowing people, and not living in some weird anti-trans echo chamber.

Look, I love theatres. I love arts venues. I think they are vital. And spaces like the Barbican, which are freely open and provide people with space to think or work or drink coffee and watch the world pass by even moreso because they're not dependent on people's ability to buy an expensive show ticket.

If I thought that you lot boycotting theatres would hurt them, I'd be really sad and really concerned. Because we need these spaces. The reason I'm not concerned is because the number of people who are as exercised as you lot are about it to the point of boycotting is v v small.

Based on living in the factual world and talking to people and knowing people, and not living in some weird anti-trans echo chamber.

What anti trans echo chamber? if you mean here then you may wish adjust your dress, your bias is showing.

Continued derogation of "us lot" might end up in someone deciding that reporting and deletions can work both ways!

Rather than because making up a cock and bull story to an MP with a history of lying is an easier way to push an agenda

You really are determined to push your agenda against this woman and the MP aren't you?

Oh well. Now we have 'witch hunts'? Aren't we the witches? Do we HUNT now too?

very venue that you deem to be insufficiently hostile to trans people.

And we hunt.... squirrels!!! Look there is one???

Just to remind everyone of the tweet under discussion:

“I was at the Barbican yesterday where there were male toilets, disabled toilets, and gender neutral toilets. I asked where were the female toilets as I am not gender neutral I am a woman and they laughed in my face. Women are being erased.”

in case we go off hunting squirrels.

And we are now 'you lot'..... yes.... we have had that dehumanisation levelled at us before. It is nothing new.

Now this is also another tactic used by the extreme activists. It is another cognitive distortion. That of catastrophising. The inference being that women wanting female single sex toilets are hostile to trans people.

Does that apply in reverse? Are trans people insisting that only mixed sex toilets are on offer doing it to be hostile to females who need those spaces?

But anyway, the tactic of demonising and monstering women who disagree continues.

OP is very clear about their prejudice and continues to misrepresent our position.

I'd quite welcome the safe knowledge that someone I got chatting to in the queue of a bar at the theatre isn't a secret transphobe.

What a gem of a statement!

*If you lot could only see how profoundly irrelevant you are to most people who do not spend their time obsessing about toilets, you might stop imagining that anyone will care about your little boycott."

In my experience, it's transactivists who are obsessed with toilets. They bang on about them endlessly. Generally, feminists are more interested in campaigning about single-sex spaces in changing rooms, prisons, rape crisis centres and hospital wards. Of course, trans activists don't mention these very much because they know how bad it makes them look. The Staniland question makes them particularly furious. If you want to see a TRA have a hissy fit, ask them: "Do you believe that male-sexed people should have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with women and girls?" Then stand back and watch as those toys come flying out of the pram!

@Helleofabore

If you think you're not a Tory but are just cosying up to them because you think owning the trans is more important than upending the destructive right wing agenda the Tories have implemented for 12 years, then you still don't have the credibility to lecture anyone about the interests of women.

Sigh... it continues.

Now feminists are 'owning the trans'. Hands up any poster on this board who which to 'own the trans' rather than simply maintain the rights and protections for women and children where they come into conflict with another group's rights?

Anyone? Any takers?

No?

Another tactic. This one is the cognitive distortion of 'Polarisation.' Or as I like to call it absolutism fuckery.

This tactic also seeks to separate out the female trans people that we seek to ensure get to keep their protections and rights that they need as they too have a female sexed body. So, it is also another misdirection and misrepresentation.

Speaking of which, OP, you seem very low on credibility to be lecturing anyone.

You lot aren't feminists.

Anyone cosying up to right wing ideologues to win some battle on toilets while those ideologues continue to push an economic and political model that has continued to exacerbate poverty, precarious employment, decaying communities and dalays or failures in vital and time sensitive public services (all of which impact women disproportionately) is not a feminist.

Meanwhile, when I asked for my burger without cheese recently, it came with cheese anyway and the server scoffed at me when I asked for a new one. I was going to complain to the manager but I now see i should be complaining to my MP. Because that is totally normal behaviour...

And the minimisation tactic that is also come out again.

So, a woman who was laughed at for asking for directions to a single sex spaces is worthy of such derision.

There is absolutely no empathy shown here. No acknowledgement that females suffer a great many issues with their bladder control and menstruation issues that require urgency and that having those facilities is vital for their participation in the community.

NO..... OP brings up burgers as if it is a wonderful analogy.

And it is. For someone who has shown a keen derision, almost hatred of women who don't agree with them. The lack of proportionality in the analogy is really quite clear.

Keep them coming OP!

You do know that we may get even more readers here. And they are highly interested in your posts as they are really a great demonstration of the lack of ability to argue the point and to resort to continuous ad hom attacks, cognitive distortions and other manipulations.

Thank you!

oooooh.... echo chamber!!!! Can we call bingo yet?

@Helleofabore

Meanwhile, when I asked for my burger without cheese recently, it came with cheese anyway and the server scoffed at me when I asked for a new one. I was going to complain to the manager but I now see i should be complaining to my MP. Because that is totally normal behaviour...

And the minimisation tactic that is also come out again.

So, a woman who was laughed at for asking for directions to a single sex spaces is worthy of such derision.

There is absolutely no empathy shown here. No acknowledgement that females suffer a great many issues with their bladder control and menstruation issues that require urgency and that having those facilities is vital for their participation in the community.

NO..... OP brings up burgers as if it is a wonderful analogy.

And it is. For someone who has shown a keen derision, almost hatred of women who don't agree with them. The lack of proportionality in the analogy is really quite clear.

Keep them coming OP!

You do know that we may get even more readers here. And they are highly interested in your posts as they are really a great demonstration of the lack of ability to argue the point and to resort to continuous ad hom attacks, cognitive distortions and other manipulations.

Thank you!

Indeed. I'm sure the vast readership of a weird obsessive corner of mumsnet is hanging on my every word.

To all of you spectral readers - hello. Hopefully you agree that someone who gets poor service in an establishment would, unless they are a crank, try and sort it out with the establishment.

Since when did 'a service provider was rude to me' become complaint to an MP territory?

Since Gender Crits thought theirs was the only way to be a woman, perhaps, and that the world revolves around their weird obsessions.

You lot aren't feminists.

OH NOOO!!!! we are not feminists now!

Anyone cosying up to right wing ideologues to win some battle on toilets while those ideologues continue to push an economic and political model that has continued to exacerbate poverty, precarious employment, decaying communities and dalays or failures in vital and time sensitive public services (all of which impact women disproportionately) is not a feminist.

And with this.... you are getting seriously repetitive. And it is not convincing now as it was not convincing the first numerous times.

Is this seriously all you have?

Oh.... and we are now 'Gender Crits' .... is that like critters... are we animals now too?

@Helleofabore

oooooh.... echo chamber!!!! Can we call bingo yet?

I think we can. The attempted minimisation by reference to echo chambers and the impoverishment of thought that defaults to assigning categorisations that dismiss other perspectives is very telling from some posters. It's as if their life experience until now has been one of an unquestioned sense of entitlement to service humans providing agreement and falling into line once they've been upbraided for having any experience or thought other than those that they are allowed.

They're something so familiar about those power structures and assumptions but somehow I just can't recall how to identify it.

Vaclav Havel, 1978 has some prescient observations about mantras and the unthinking adoption of an ideology and the true cost of the absolution that it confers. (This also has overlaps with Arendt's Origins of Totalitarianism and the role of isolation/outgrouping/ and the creation of mistrust and loneliness as important precursors.)

In an era when metaphysical and existential certainties are in a state of crisis, when people are being uprooted and alienated and are losing their sense of what this world means, this ideology inevitably has a certain hypnotic charm. To wandering humankind it offers an immediately available home: all one has to do is accept it, and suddenly everything becomes clear once more, life takes on new meaning, and all mysteries, unanswered questions, anxiety, and loneliness vanish. Of course, one pays dearly for this low-rent home: the price is abdication of one’ s own reason, conscience, and responsibility, for an essential aspect of this ideology is the consignment of reason and conscience to a higher authority.

hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/the-power-of-the-powerless-vaclav-havel-2011-12-23

I'm seeing gender clits myself. Damn dyslexia.

I'm enjoying the 'female people wanting equality of rights are just nutjobs with weird obsession' bit

Misogyny on crack alllllllll the way.

You lot aren't feminists.

Anyone cosying up to right wing ideologues to win some battle on toilets while those ideologues continue to push an economic and political model that has continued to exacerbate poverty, precarious employment, decaying communities and dalays or failures in vital and time sensitive public services (all of which impact women disproportionately) is not a feminist.

Well you sure as shit ain't a feminist. Feminism is for and about females, not males however they feel about themselves.

It's not a battle on toilets it's a battle to ensure that females have the right to male free spaces everywhere for their safety, privacy and dignity without question or judgement and anyone who believes that females do not deserve that most simple and basic consideration is a misogynist.

Failure to supply that most simple and basic of requests actively excludes some of the most vulnerable and marginalised women in society, if you are happy with that then you are a misogynist.

If it is trans hostile to want that most simple and basic of considerations then it is proof positive that the trans rights agenda is in direct opposition to women and women's rights and that is misogynist.

I'm sure the vast readership of a weird obsessive corner of mumsnet is hanging on my every word.

To be fair, the 'vast readership' is usually directed here from people slagging off MN on twitter. Many of us got told to 'educate' ourselves. So we did. Using the archive bank of a huge number of links to studies, papers, reports, statistics.

I suggest any new readers who do want to a place to start, the Break it down for me? thread is a good place.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

It will be a better option than relying on OP very prejudiced view of what they think people who OP has labelled 'Gender Critical' believe. As usual, it is usually a contorted mess fuelled by their own political motivations.