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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Former Trans Child of Gender Critical Parents (very long). *Trigger warning - descriptions of self harm and suicide* - Title edited by MNHQ

541 replies

pop91 · 26/03/2022 22:33

Hi,

To start I wanna say I'm writing this post in good faith to provide the viewpoint of a Trans person with Gender Critical parents but I know this is the internet and this will probably just be trolled to death but here goes.

I had a pretty regular 'happy' family setup, and apparently first told my parents of my identity at just 5yrs old but the first I remember is at 8yrs old when I refused to go by my 'very gendered' birth name but my parents insisted on using it especially publicly.

My parents were never particularly strict on gender roles in the home - my sister would wear my dad's glasses and jacket and stomp around with his briefcase in hand and my brother had an emo phase with heels and mascara to match and apart from some grumbling from my father it was never the biggest issue in our house.

Sexuality was different though even though my father would class himself as a pragmatic centrist, barring a socialist university phase, and my mother a card-carrying progressive New Labour type whose Best Friend was the most flamboyant gay man and an Aunt who lived with her 'friend' until she passed. There was an uncomfortableness with sexuality where both my parents would call it a lifestyle choice and opposed gay marriage - cut to three years ago when my older brother came out as bisexual and last month the youngest sister as a lesbian Grin but rest assured the other 3 siblings remain firmly 'normal.'

Back to me and by 12 I had started puberty and was experiencing debilitating gender dysphoria - I would look into the mirror and see nothing that matched my brain. I would continue to feel this way until the bullying and dysphoria got so bad that one night I climbed into my bathtub with a kitchen knife hoping I could change my body to fit my brain somehow I managed not to perform self-surgery in my bathtub.

A couple of months later I came clean to my parents, I wasn't expecting a big hug but I wasn't expecting what came next. They ignored it as if I had told them what I wanted for dinner, they decided they didn't hear what I had said at all.

Over the next year, the internet became my friend as I found ways to affirm my gender by doing hidden things at first and then slowly more outward things. I came out to my siblings and although they found it confusing my oldest brother and sister were a godsend who I wouldn't have survived without, They helped me pick out a new haircut and new clothes and we came up with a new name.

I came out in school and sure there was bullying but I was feeling so Euphoric that it almost didn't matter. When the teachers found out they informed my parents and that's when everything changed! My parents sat me down and said I was just confused. They threw out my new clothes, anything that I used to affirm my gender, even my shoes and magazines then they took my bedroom door off and took away my laptop and phone and forced my older siblings to refer to me by my birth name, my older brother and sister stopped supporting me and I lost my only family support and anything that was helping me.

Eventually, when they realised everything they had done hadn't worked and I still felt the same way, they decided to try both religious and non-religious conversion therapy which left permanent scarring to my mental health and I frequently have nightmares about it.

At 15 I had my first suicide attempt and my parents forced me to lie and say it was due just to bullying at school but that wasn't true it was the dysphoria and conversion therapy that was killing me.

From 15 to 17 I had multiple suicide attempts and after the third one, my parents finally allowed me to stop the conversion therapy but still forcibly live as my 'biological' sex.

Eventually, I managed to get to a great University and at 18 I socially transitioned and by 20 I had started hormones. I now have a job that provides me financial stability and have an amazing partner, with 2 children from a prior relationship that I now consider like my own. We are also now having a baby very soon.

My mother now describes herself as Gender Critical and frequently posts online about how she will be unable to see her grandchildren because of her views, which is true as I will not allow my parents to see either my child or stepchildren.

My parents continue to refuse to acknowledge my identity and pronouns. The last time we talked, she said she believes I am just gay, which neither makes sense considering my partner's gender nor the fact she also has a terrible relationship with my lesbian sister and bisexual brother who also rarely allows his child to visit my mum, due to her comments about their sexualities.

I finally have the support back of all my siblings and we do frequently gather without my parents. I hope one day my parents change their minds but honestly I don't hold much hope and I don't know if I could forgive what they did to me.

A lot of online trans activists wish trans children for Gender Criticals but I don't, it wasn't very nice at all. If you're going to ask if I think kids should transition, the answer is I don't know as I didn't transition as a child and a social transition helped plenty for me.

Well that's it I think, just the perspective and experience of a trans person with Gender Critical parents, feel free to ask any reasonable questions or respectful questions. Smile

OP posts:
pop91 · 27/03/2022 20:11

How fast can we get this to 500 replies cause I think I'll quit after that?

I can't believe the discussion was getting interesting and it's divulged into this nothingness again.

:(

OP posts:
viques · 27/03/2022 20:12

[quote pop91]@Wafflemaker

though I don't suppose this is a good-faith question of what is a woman I will give the definition I find most appropriate:

Firstly women are in 99% of cases an adult human female who identifies as a woman and secondly in 1% of cases either a woman is an Adult Trans Woman who identifies as a woman or anyone who falls towards the women end of the gender spectrum and identifies as a woman.[/quote]
So an adult human female is a woman and someone who is not an adult human female but identifies as a woman is a transwoman. That sounds about right to me.

Just please don’t call adult human females ciswomen. We know what we are.

WarriorN · 27/03/2022 20:13

I LIKE having a dick and a beard and a flat male chest.
I DISLIKE having a vagina and a smooth face and tits.
I LIKE being called my name and He/Him.
I DISLIKE being called my birthname and She/Her.

It's all just costume in a world where cosmetic surgery can be done in a lunch break.

RoseslnTheHospital · 27/03/2022 20:14

To keep a discussion on the track you want, my pro tip is to spend your time replying to people whose posts you value and ignore the others. That way you as the OP can steer the discussion to some extent.

mudgetastic · 27/03/2022 20:14

The problem with saying women is adult human female who identifies as women is that the only reason I call myself women is because it was an exclusive description of sex

As soon as you change the meaning I am no longer a women . Meanings matter . I won't call myself something I don't understand

Although the abuse still feel like that given to women

My identity matters not one jot

wasibat · 27/03/2022 20:14

So what's a label for the ones without a gender identity?

-- 'Humans' . There is no such thing as gender identity (in the sense of something that may or not match with an individual's sex and causes dysphoria when the match fails).

Some people certainly believe thay have a gender identity in this sense, just as some people believe they have a guardian angel. But they do not. There is no such thing.

LosingTheWill2022 · 27/03/2022 20:25

who looks in a mirror and thinks their brain doesn't match their body?

TRANS PEOPLE!

As someone who is GC I reject the notion that 'gender' exists at all other than in the sentence of socially constructed stereotypes.

So, as the parent of a 17 year old I have had many discussions about this. My dd also happens to be autistic and has complex mental health problems.

My dd experiences depersonalisation which means she believes the world around her is not real. She looks in the mirror and tells me her face and body don't belong to her. It is extremely distressing for her.
So although I don't have experience of parenting a child with gender dysphoria, I have experiences that I believe overlap a great deal. I support my dd by talking, listening and reassuring. I engage with MH professionals and work with them. No one tells my dd that her belief is real - because her body does belong to her despite what she sees/feels/believes. And my approach would be the same if her belief was 'gender' related dysphoria. I would respect her, love her, talk loads and listen more. I would seek advice and engage with MH professionals.

At one stage her only social contact was a youth group for young people with MH problems. The prevalence of young people identifying as something other than their sex was incredible. These young people had other, primary issues (abuse, trauma, diagnosed mental illness or ND). All were struggling to make sense of their lives and exert some control in difficult circumstances.

The approach directed at these young people by school and support groups was unquestioning acceptance of their chosen identity which resulted in legitimising and reinforcing the belief. If I had not been around to gently challenge some of the ideas and ideology I know dd would have absorbed it wholeheartedly.
As a bisexual, gender non-conforming autistic woman she now believes she would have gone on to identify as non-binary if we hadn't had the conversations we did along the way. I did not employ preventative conversion therapy ' I listened and talked and explained.

Her closest friend at the group is also autistic and identifies as trans (f t m). Dd was able to discuss her own (by now GC) views and still maintain the friendship. She and I respected her friend's choice of name and used it.

pop91 · 27/03/2022 20:26

@RoseslnTheHospital

To keep a discussion on the track you want, my pro tip is to spend your time replying to people whose posts you value and ignore the others. That way you as the OP can steer the discussion to some extent.
Yh I just feel a compulsiveness to try and answer every question even if I'm not an expert as I hate being accused of ignoring questions.
OP posts:
pop91 · 27/03/2022 20:35

@LosingTheWill2022

who looks in a mirror and thinks their brain doesn't match their body?

TRANS PEOPLE!

As someone who is GC I reject the notion that 'gender' exists at all other than in the sentence of socially constructed stereotypes.

So, as the parent of a 17 year old I have had many discussions about this. My dd also happens to be autistic and has complex mental health problems.

My dd experiences depersonalisation which means she believes the world around her is not real. She looks in the mirror and tells me her face and body don't belong to her. It is extremely distressing for her.
So although I don't have experience of parenting a child with gender dysphoria, I have experiences that I believe overlap a great deal. I support my dd by talking, listening and reassuring. I engage with MH professionals and work with them. No one tells my dd that her belief is real - because her body does belong to her despite what she sees/feels/believes. And my approach would be the same if her belief was 'gender' related dysphoria. I would respect her, love her, talk loads and listen more. I would seek advice and engage with MH professionals.

At one stage her only social contact was a youth group for young people with MH problems. The prevalence of young people identifying as something other than their sex was incredible. These young people had other, primary issues (abuse, trauma, diagnosed mental illness or ND). All were struggling to make sense of their lives and exert some control in difficult circumstances.

The approach directed at these young people by school and support groups was unquestioning acceptance of their chosen identity which resulted in legitimising and reinforcing the belief. If I had not been around to gently challenge some of the ideas and ideology I know dd would have absorbed it wholeheartedly.
As a bisexual, gender non-conforming autistic woman she now believes she would have gone on to identify as non-binary if we hadn't had the conversations we did along the way. I did not employ preventative conversion therapy ' I listened and talked and explained.

Her closest friend at the group is also autistic and identifies as trans (f t m). Dd was able to discuss her own (by now GC) views and still maintain the friendship. She and I respected her friend's choice of name and used it.

Thank you for your post and interesting to hear about your daughter's experience with autism and young people with MH problems.

My dd experiences depersonalisation which means she believes the world around her is not real

I'd strongly agree with people who experience extreme depersonalisation to either be given more time and/or be assessed harsher for actual gender dysphoria.

Fortunately, I can say I don't suffer from autism nor do any of the trans people I know however yes, of course, I'd advocate for much stronger caution for people who have other pre-existing MH problems.

Do you feel most autistic children who might experience Gender Dysphoria will go on to be given an actual diagnosis as I honestly don't know of any Trans people with autism?

OP posts:
Whatsnewpussyhat · 27/03/2022 20:36

agreed but you understand the masses will not put no gender for fear that makes them non-binary or some other variation of GNC

They'll choose Trans before no gender

The question wouldn't be do you have a gender, it would be do you believe in this religion or not. Most don't believe in gender ideology.

I don't believe in god. I have friends that do. The law says they can believe what they like, it also says I do not have to be compelled to go along with it.

You can believe you are a man. You can't compel others to share that belief.

When adult male TRA'S starting shouting that they ARE women, that's when most women started saying no. They are transwomen. The opposite sex to us.

We can be respectful until we are told we must hand over our spaces, sports and words in order to provide validation for other people's identities.

pombear · 27/03/2022 20:39

Nellodee

I would accept the use of cis and trans if it went along with the sex definition of man and woman.

In other words, I am happy to be a cis woman if you accept being a trans woman

pop91 you said in reply

Agreed. please inform all Gender Criticals

Trumpets Blare
Cis peoples and Trans peoples a deal has been reached which is exactly what trans people have said all along but whatever because A DEAL HAS BEEN REACHED!

Sorry, I'm just dipping into this thread but I'm really confused. If you're an adult human female who wishes to be referred to as a man, and Nellodee said 'that's OK with me if the 'cis' and 'trans' definition went along the lines of sex - therefore you are a trans woman - aka a woman who idenitifies as trans.

That's OK with you, and a trumpets blaring moment? Ie you're a woman who identifies as a man - therefore you're a trans woman?

PS: I'm also a bit concerned about your 'I'm getting a dick soon' post. I don't know how many dicks you've been around, but most people on this site know the difference between a penis and a constructed roll of flesh grafted onto the pubis area.

PrelateChuckles · 27/03/2022 20:40

I thought 'agender' were those who don't have a gender identity?

LosingTheWill2022 · 27/03/2022 20:48

@pop91
I'd advocate for much stronger caution for people who have other pre-existing MH problems

I honestly don't know of any Trans people with autism

Have you seen anything on the Cass report?
Have a look at this article and you will see why many people are desperately concerned and feel that vulnerable young people are being horrendously let down.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/20/observer-view-cass-review-gender-identity-services-young-people

(For future reference autistic people are autistic not "suffering" from autism).

Sandinmyhooves · 27/03/2022 20:49

But it isn’t a subset of women, OP. I’m happy for transwomen to have their own safe resources, access to appropriate care and safe spaces. I would argue tooth and nail for that. But not to the detriment of women’s safety and privacy. Transwomen are not women.

ScrollingLeaves · 27/03/2022 21:04

“Not ALL GCs (especially on Twitter/Facebook) have argued against gendered socialisation. In fact just a while ago when the new Disney movie came out, many GCs seemed to accuse what was presented as a physically strong cis-woman of being 'secretly trans' or pushing a 'trans agenda on kids.' or adverts/tv shows/movies where a male child has worn a dress and/or makeup and the same 'trans agenda' line has been pushed. which does evidently seems counter to what you're saying of destroying gender roles without sex change.”

I have not seen the Disney film. But do you not see there is a huge difference between a child or teen expressing themselves individually, from their own well of being, as opposed to adults pushing/grooming children with their own views for their own reasons. You see it with Drag Queen Story Time too. That becomes a sort of trans/queer propaganda. carried out by adults. Meanwhile on line communities are having a strong influence on disturbed teens in promoting the sense that they must transition.

No one wants their child to start down the path of media driven transition. Peer pressure is already bad enough.

I think the Ad of the little boy running amok wearing a dress and makeup has particular characteristics if it’s own though. Not all objections to it were trans gender related but I think they were these:

  1. The hint that this was more than a little boy dressing up for fun as so many children do - nudge nudge he might be trans…..
  2. John Lewis seeming want to join a woke band wagon.
  3. The indulgence and celebration of the little boy’s wrecking the house and his sister’s peaceful painting, while she and her mother remain calm and will have to do the work of picking up the pieces after his rampage.
  4. The misleading message that J L insurance would actually pay out for this sort of damage when in practice it would not.
Helleofabore · 27/03/2022 21:47

That John Lewis ad was a shite price of confused communication. It served no group well. If that boy was simply dressing up and having fun, it was not conveyed that way. Even the paints he marked himself with were stonewall branded colours. As a marketing person of many years, the obvious and less obvious messaging in that ad served no one well. I am surprised it was ever approved.

Blogblogblogblog · 27/03/2022 21:55

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

OP would you take time to read this with an open mind? I don’t think lots of people have actually read it as people prefer shorter stuff on Twitter. JKR, like many of us, is/was a labour supporter. I can’t imagine her ever being right wing listening to her. You will find a lot of us moan about being politically homeless on this board as labour and greens have difficulty working out a how to redefine women and men - no one has done that successfully yet as gender is so wish-washy. Sticking to the dictionary definition using biological sex works for health and safeguarding everyone. Mums (most of us here) are particularly keen on safeguarding women and our children. Our biology dictates it.

Helleofabore · 27/03/2022 21:58

@RoseslnTheHospital

I hate to break it to you. *@pop91*, that you are also critical of gender, or gender critical if you will.
I think that OP has perhaps more in common with the majority of posters in this board than they realise.

However, when transitioned female post on this board, rather than well meaning entrenched allies, that does seem the case.

No females transitioners try to use the ‘we are opposite sex and always were’ rhetoric. It would be surprising, I think, if they thought about it more. The huge difference between male and female transitioners.

Yes, we might get frustrated a the repeated misrepresentations if our beliefs ( or the common beliefs we hold) but there is a nuanced difference between talking to pop and other transitioned females and those transitioned males or well meaning but again very entrenched allies.

And I do wonder if OP realises there is some common ground and maybe much more than they ever understood.

runningfromreality · 27/03/2022 22:04

Male =has a willy

Female - doesn't.

I'm 'gender critical' because the whole societal roles that are placed on us based on whether we are male or female is hugely offensive and not helpful.

OP?

StellaAndCrow · 27/03/2022 22:10

@Helleofabore

No Binders are not neutral but neither is clothing that made me look more masculine or hide breasts. Even a tighter shirt underneath and wider pants helped hide curves.

right. But we have already agreed that your parents were abusive. Hiding 'curves' is certainly something I did, and certainly something I do now. 'binders' can cause damage and harm. Whereas wearing clothes that hide 'curves' are not flattening breast tissue causing harm.

There is a difference, and I think you know this.

Yes, all my friends and I did the "hiding curves" thing in our teens - those days it was mostly with baggy shirts and jumpers.
runningfromreality · 27/03/2022 22:14

Ha. Yes... show me a teenage girl happy with her puberty and I show you the exception!

StellaAndCrow · 27/03/2022 22:19

"I guess someone must have moulded my brain to be more male from birth then."

What do you mean by "more male", please?

What do you see as being the difference between male and female brains?

Thank you.

StellaAndCrow · 27/03/2022 22:24

@AlisonDonut

All those years of working on girls to expand their minds to be able to do whatever they want to do.

Shattered by this toxic ideology which tells them if they want to do/wear 'man things' they are a man.

What a fucking waste of time.

Yes, and pushing people into gender boxes, insisting they're "cis".

It seems selfish to me.

StellaAndCrow · 27/03/2022 22:27

@RoseslnTheHospital

There is no opposite of trans. It's like asking what's the opposite of Catholic.
Yes, exactly that. My friend is from Northern Ireland, and it's really hard for some people there to get their head round the fact that he's neither Catholic nor Protestant.
Photinia · 27/03/2022 22:32

pop, this was doing the rounds a while ago. It's simplistic and it probably misrepresents your views, but I think it neatly illustrates two things: why you and we are all OK with baggy jumpers (and any other signifier of gender) on either sex body; and the overlap between gender-critical feminists and conservatives (which I would suggest is where your parents are in this, however they describe themselves) in the belief that sex is a physical phenomenon related to chromosomes etc.

Former Trans Child of Gender Critical Parents (very long). *Trigger warning - descriptions of self harm and suicide* - Title edited by MNHQ
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