Martial Law prevents Transwomen leaving Ukraine

[MathSage]

The Guardian reported that Transwomen trying to flee Ukraine are being stopped and turned back by border guards. Under martial law, men aged 18-60 are not permitted to leave. They are needed for the war.

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/22/i-will-not-be-held-prisoner-the-trans-women-turned-back-at-ukraines-borders

The transwomen say they are legally women. It is not clear whether Ukraine’s martial law applies only to those whose sex is female or also those men who identify as the opposite gender.

This would seem to be another situation where it is important to decide whether a ruling applies to someone according to their sex or their gender. Here male border guards are refusing to let biological men identify as non-men. What’s more, how can the guards tell who is sincere?

I know this is a dreadful situation but surely the key question has to be how citizens can best support their country. Many biological women are choosing to remain. Even some with children or other caring responsibilities. I heard a Ukrainian MP on Radio 4 describing how she had to continue to serve, so she had arranged for her child’s father to take over childcare.

I can see why they want to leave. If Putin succeeds in occupying Ukraine it's possible they will be killed. Legal documentation should be honoured, in my opinion.

I agree that legal documentation should be honoured. However, I would like to understand the exact reasoning behind why women and children are allowed to go before stating an opinion!

I had seen a similar article a few weeks ago, but the problem there being that all paperwork was in the male birth name.

Body inspections are a whole other level. Hopefully if it come to it all Ukrainians regardless of sex or age will be allowed to leave.

The overall situation in Ukraine is dire, truly truly monstrous for all Ukrainians.

But this particular case is a mixture of two different things: the transgender question and the question who it is who is expected to be a soldier when needed.

Ukraine is quite traditional on sex roles, as far as I can tell, so it is male people it requires to stay to defend the country. A better rule might have been to specify an age group of adults who should remain if they are healthy and have no urgent family obligations (infants to care for, pregnant, the only caregivers for a sick family member etc).

But that has its own problems if only men are trained in any kind of fighting there, though there are other tasks that are needed to be carried out behind the lines.

Still, I see two different gender concepts clashing here, neither of which is particularly gender critical.

This is the problem isn’t it

Any man who doesn’t want to fight, can self ID as a woman

Ukraine have to draw the line somewhere and unfortunately it means “genuine” transwomen are missing that cut

If they are allowed to escape military service this way, then every Ukrainian bloke who doesn’t fancy it just has to stick on a dress and some lippy and head for the border. It’s ridiculous, and I’m not surprised it cuts no ice with the border guards in the middle of a war for survival.

There are also quite a few (I've read) turning up at the border saying they've lost their documentation. Then the soldiers have to make a decision about whether to let them leave. It's bound to result in a range of decisions.

@tabbycatstripy

I can see why they want to leave. If Putin succeeds in occupying Ukraine it's possible they will be killed. Legal documentation should be honoured, in my opinion.

It's possible many many people will be killed. Russians are reportedly taking Ukrainians, including the elderly father of a journalist so she 'hands herself in'. Svetlana Zalizetskaya. Russians have used rape, sexual torture, forced prostitution and other sexed atrocities in the past (and reportedly present). Women are unsafe as well.

Is it right for all men to stay? That's a very very difficult question. Based on the realities of caring responsibilities, physical ability and socialization. You can argue that if men should stay, transwomen should to because most of those things apply to them.

I'm very glad I'm not making those impossible decisions about people's lives, though. There is no good answer. Sometimes it's just what's least dreadful.

I absolutely don't begrudge anyone getting out of Ukraine by any means possible. I think the whole concept of conscription is horrendous.

@DoobryWhatsit

I absolutely don't begrudge anyone getting out of Ukraine by any means possible. I think the whole concept of conscription is horrendous.

Agreed. But then if most people leave Putin will win. A dreadful situation for all Ukrainians as I mentioned.

MrsTerryPratchett

I think I see it as a social contract thing. The Ukrainian government says you can change sex, so it doesn't seem fair for them to just reverse it in the absence of any law.

Transmen in Ukraine have chosen to be men. That means they should stay.

In a time where documents may not be available, setting a generic rule of males and females makes sense. By nature of biology, women are the ones who are going to be pregnant or providing nourishment for infants. We can protest stereotypes, but we all know that they are more likely to be the main caregivers of young children in every single country in the world.

If a rule of male vs female is being used, transgender individuals should follow the rules of their actual sex. Identity is irrelevant. That is especially true since part of the reason for a generic rule is that chaos means documentation may be lost.

It's a terrible situation all around.

I feel bad for all people that have to stay but if they say males have to stay, TW are male, so they have to stay.

If they said men stay, TW leave, why wouldn't ALL the men who wanted to leave claim to be TW? I certainly would advise anyone to take advantage of a loophole to get out when your life is at risk.

@Babdoc

If they are allowed to escape military service this way, then every Ukrainian bloke who doesn’t fancy it just has to stick on a dress and some lippy and head for the border. It’s ridiculous, and I’m not surprised it cuts no ice with the border guards in the middle of a war for survival.

This! They shouldn't be able to identify out of sticking around with the other men.

If men are required to stay and fight then transwomen are men so should stay. Why not?

I read a sympathetic article about a transman who decided they'd "disguise" themselves as a woman in order to get out.

www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-how-a-transgender-man-escaped-russias-invasion-2022-3?amp

I'm sure it was the nail polish that fooled everyone.

@flygirl1983

I read a sympathetic article about a transman who decided they'd "disguise" themselves as a woman in order to get out.

So did I. Apparently the dysphoria was very traumatic.

If I was a man of fighting age in Ukraine I would quickly cross-dress to get out of having to join the army.

Has no one cottoned onto the fact that many men lie about being trans for their own personal benefit? To get out of conflict, to win medals in women's sport, to get an easier life in prison etc.

Also they are now digging up bodies of female warriors from hundreds of years ago and claiming that they were trans because they fought in a war. Are the women in Ukraine fighting for their country trans too then?

From an absolutely abstract perspective (it's difficult, I know) it may provide an interesting touchstone for anyone previously espousing TWAW - a lot of supporters think it's all very well to profess this because it's an issue of solely personal significance (or so they claim, its implications are pretty damn significant for women..). When claimed trans status has, as it does here, profound implications for a country fighting for its continued existence (can you imagine the hit to morale and solidarity when Stephanie Hayden, for example, slinks off to Poland with her special dispensation?) it becomes very much clearer how much of a luxury belief that is..

Conversely, can you imagine the hit to morale when India Willoughby turned up to repel the Russian army?

This just illustrates what a 1st world problem gender ideology really is. When the sh*t hits the fan and everyone has a stark reality check-men are men.

There have been heart wrenching pictures of Fathers kissing their children goodbye, as they have to stay and fight. Young men I'm sure are terrified they will be killed in this war-it is horrific.

But just like women can't identify out of their sex to avoid being raped or pregnant, men can't identify out of their sex either in times of war.

I thought about starting a thread on this when I saw the Guardian article a few days ago I title it "Luxury Belief in a Time of War". I do feel desperately sad for them and for everyone caught up in this. But it's also grimly funny, I think the word is "bathos'". It isn't the most tragic story coming out of the Ukraine by a long chalk.

@tabbycatstripy

Conversely, can you imagine the hit to morale when India Willoughby turned up to repel the Russian army?

Would repel the hell out of me..