Martial Law prevents Transwomen leaving Ukraine

[MathSage]

The Guardian reported that Transwomen trying to flee Ukraine are being stopped and turned back by border guards. Under martial law, men aged 18-60 are not permitted to leave. They are needed for the war.

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/22/i-will-not-be-held-prisoner-the-trans-women-turned-back-at-ukraines-borders

The transwomen say they are legally women. It is not clear whether Ukraine’s martial law applies only to those whose sex is female or also those men who identify as the opposite gender.

This would seem to be another situation where it is important to decide whether a ruling applies to someone according to their sex or their gender. Here male border guards are refusing to let biological men identify as non-men. What’s more, how can the guards tell who is sincere?

I know this is a dreadful situation but surely the key question has to be how citizens can best support their country. Many biological women are choosing to remain. Even some with children or other caring responsibilities. I heard a Ukrainian MP on Radio 4 describing how she had to continue to serve, so she had arranged for her child’s father to take over childcare.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

God love them, *@zoeFromCity*.

55% children? Jesus wept.

Yes, 55% of Ukrainian refugees who made it to my country are children. Very common is that they come as a group of 2-3 women with 3-6 children (their own or from wider family), who stay together and help each other (getting information, at least one can start working immediately before external childcare is resolved). It is partially OT here, but the point remains - women without children tend to remain in Ukraine and do whatever they can (some fighting, some operating war call center, and many making sure the country remain going, they still need to bake bread, care for the livestock, run communication, operate warehouses... lots of civil work is needed), so identifying as a women doesn't mean someone can't be useful there.

I can understand people trying to flee too. Everyone there is in a desperate situation.

However, for those border guards who are staying to do their jobs and are probably as frightened as everyone else, how are they to feel when asked to accept someone else’s identified reality as a transwoman when they have the evidence of their own eyes as to that person’s sex? Is it logically any different from expecting women to accept transwomen into single sex spaces?

During the siege of Leningrad in WWII.Russians too fearful or unwilling to fight the Germans were summarily executed by Russians.This is one of the many reasons why war is so horrific,

@theworldhas Very odd that you've come to a thread about the war in Ukraine with all men of fighting age being required to stay and fight and then criticise one poster for discussing the rules and what people would do to get out of them.

None of the other posts (in your eyes) are distasteful?

Men are being told to stay because of their bodies not their identities. Transwomen are men so of course this rule applies to them too. Why on earth would it not? People need to understand when something is an identity issue and when something is a body issue and stop confusing the two.

@Theyellowandthegreen

I saw a sympathetic article from France on a transwoman who was not allowed to cross the border. She stated that people should be talking about discrimination and transphobia, not just the war.

Transphobic? Discrimination? Yes, we must try to forget dead kiddies and grandads shooting at Russians, and babies dying for lack of water,. and brave men putting their families on trains, and sad eyed mothers trying to be brave and waving goodbye, and flattened cities turned to rubble... Yes we are being transphobic by not prioritising trans people. You can't change sex. TW are men. And like the other men they stay and fight.

They should stay. Women are required to continue the population, these men are not.

Female participation in Ukraine’s armed forces has shot up during this conflict and any able bodied and mentally fit man heading for the border, however he identifies, should woman up and help.

Nobody should be compelled to fight or kill if they find that morally objectionable - there are plenty of other roles needed, from rescuing civilians, giving first aid, carrying supplies in etc etc.

I agree that they should stay, as should fit healthy women without caring responsibilities. Anyone under 21 should be free to leave, war is adult work.
I read that Guardian article, the TW end quote was that she should be free to live her life how she wants (or something like that). Yes, so should everyone in Ukraine, but they're not, you are not special.

They need to stay and fight like men. Can you imagine if this bizarro caper had gone on in WWII..? Enough of this nonsense now, there's a war on.

Wasn't there an old film about a deserter who dresses as woman, can only remember a bloke in a headscarf, set in England, I think he gets shot by his wife.

@Birdy272

They need to stay and fight like men. Can you imagine if this bizarro caper had gone on in WWII..? Enough of this nonsense now, there's a war on.

Funny how gender stereotypes come straight back into vogue when there’s a war that needs fighting, isn’t it?

I don't think men who identify as women should get special privileges whilst other men have to stay and fight. Why would they? Separating the men out who have womanly feelings is ridiculous. What if they all decide to identify as women? Can they then ALL leave?

Funny how gender stereotypes come straight back into vogue when there’s a war that needs fighting, isn’t it?

Yes, funny how biological realities become apparent when the reality of ferocious hand-to-hand combat, the ability to dig trenches fast, the ability to carry heavy equipment over difficult terrain and the ability to run very fast if necessary comes into play. And of course the ability to give birth to and raise the next generation, hopefully to live through more peaceful times.

Funny how gender stereotypes come straight back into vogue when there’s a war that needs fighting, isn’t it?

Well don't blame us. We were trying to make the point about sex being real, immutable and with unchangeable realities back when it was just things like changing rooms, prisons and women's sports that were at stake.

Funny how gender stereotypes come straight back into vogue when there’s a war that needs fighting, isn’t it?

Gender ideology is entrenching stereotypes and there is nothing funny about it at all. The real conversation should be whether some women should be expected to stay and fight too not whether some men should be exempted because they have internalised stereotypes regarding men and women and feel more aligned with women's stereotypes.

thedancingbear
"Funny how gender stereotypes come straight back into vogue when there’s a war that needs fighting, isn’t it?"

How is it gender stereotypes? It's sexed bodies. Remember them? Those taller, stronger, faster male bodies? The ones that have the upper body strength to support, say, a 15kg Stinger for a sustained period of time?

This is not one of those 'nice' high-tech wars you see at the cinema. This is towns turned into battlefield. Combat up close-and-personal, worst case scenario hand-to-hand. Physical strength matters.

Are they making exceptions for sub-groups of men? Men with learning difficulties, or autism, or sensory problems or physical disabilities, or a history of mental illness, depression of PTSD? Who who have heart disease, diabetes, immunity problems, cancer... who would all also find remaining difficult.

Or for men who are widowers with children? Or who have disabled child or disabled wife? Or whose child is terminally ill and has been evacuated?

There must be thousands of men in all those categories.

The country needs defending. A line has be drawn somewhere. War is not fair. None of the men staying want to die.

Why of all groups do transwomen get the page inches in the papers and pieces in the news?

This got me thinking about Corporal Klinger in MASH

Has that been cancelled yet?

The only two news stories I've read are one concerning a TW who left & one about a TM who left. I was wondering how anyone would explain this, because if one leaves because they identify as a woman, surely the other would stay because they identify as a man. Alternatively, if one leaves because they have a female body, surely the other would stay because they have a male body.

And that's before we get to the queston of the Ukrainian women who are fighting. So they both could've stayed, for whatever reason. Of course it's an individual choice, but I wondered about the logic of it.

I was taken aback by the Ukrainian grandmother on the TV news recently who said, "Both my daughters & my granddaughter..." & I assumed she'd say, "... have gone abroad," but she said, "... are fighting." Amazing people.

@ChristinaXYZ

Are they making exceptions for sub-groups of men? Men with learning difficulties, or autism, or sensory problems or physical disabilities, or a history of mental illness, depression of PTSD? Who who have heart disease, diabetes, immunity problems, cancer... who would all also find remaining difficult.

Or for men who are widowers with children? Or who have disabled child or disabled wife? Or whose child is terminally ill and has been evacuated?

There must be thousands of men in all those categories.

The country needs defending. A line has be drawn somewhere. War is not fair. None of the men staying want to die.

Why of all groups do transwomen get the page inches in the papers and pieces in the news?

I believe sole male caters are exempt.

Carers!

Wasn't there an old film about a deserter who dresses as woman, can only remember a bloke in a headscarf, set in England, I think he gets shot by his wife.

The Triple Echo with Glenda Jackson and Oliver Reed?

@Theyellowandthegreen

I saw a sympathetic article from France on a transwoman who was not allowed to cross the border. She stated that people should be talking about discrimination and transphobia, not just the war.

Sure. Stop the war! Trans people want to whine about transphobic. Everyone has to listen!

Surprised at some of these comments . I agree that if males are subject to certain rules, those rules should apply to TW. But comments like "the country needs defending?" imply support for conscription. I don't agree with it. It should be an option. If insufficient numbers choose to fight so be it. I'm sure many would prefer to live under Putin than die in the mud.