Martial Law prevents Transwomen leaving Ukraine

[MathSage]

The Guardian reported that Transwomen trying to flee Ukraine are being stopped and turned back by border guards. Under martial law, men aged 18-60 are not permitted to leave. They are needed for the war.

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/22/i-will-not-be-held-prisoner-the-trans-women-turned-back-at-ukraines-borders

The transwomen say they are legally women. It is not clear whether Ukraine’s martial law applies only to those whose sex is female or also those men who identify as the opposite gender.

This would seem to be another situation where it is important to decide whether a ruling applies to someone according to their sex or their gender. Here male border guards are refusing to let biological men identify as non-men. What’s more, how can the guards tell who is sincere?

I know this is a dreadful situation but surely the key question has to be how citizens can best support their country. Many biological women are choosing to remain. Even some with children or other caring responsibilities. I heard a Ukrainian MP on Radio 4 describing how she had to continue to serve, so she had arranged for her child’s father to take over childcare.

Military cervix.

It's a horrible situation all around, noone should be forced to stay and fight but this is the reality. I'm sure there are a lot of lovely sensitive males that will really struggle in this environment, however they are being forced to fight, so no male who's self Id himself as woman should get out of it. Life has just got real and all this gender woo woo shit is being shown up for what it is.

I'm just wondering how much of a hit to recruitment will it be - a huge manicured finger pointing straight (sic) at you as Katy Montgomerie thunders "Your Country Needs You"...

"Don't you know there's a war on?"

I've just been reading a book about WWII and it mentions this phrase. It was basically the default answer to any complaint about shortages and privations.

Ukraine is at war. It needs every able-bodied man it has to heft a gun and defend against the invaders. I don't imagine that many of them want to, but they're gritting their teeth because they know the alternative is to lose their country to Russia and maybe become a permanent refugee. Many women, although able to leave, are staying too. Some are even getting their children to safety and then returning. Needs must.

War is the ultimate reality. It isn't nice, it isn't kind, and it is about survival, both personal and national. In the context of war, identity is absolutely a luxury belief. 'I identify as' has always meant 'I want to be but know I'm not'. The stark truth is that reality, in the shape of those border guards, identified them as men.

As has already been pointed out, if donning a dress and painting your nails got you a ticket out, how many would take that route? Ukraine cannot afford to find that out.

And pardon my bringing the tone right down, but the idea of a man getting out of military service through cross-dressing is hardly new. And Corporal Klinger never did get discharged either.

It is not clear whether Ukraine’s martial law applies only to those whose sex is female or also those men who identify as the opposite gender.

Very few countries structure their law based on gender identity. Even the UK (at the moment) only applies an exemption to a tiny number of people and it's based on medical evidence, not identity per se.

I'd be stunned if Ukrainian law was based on anything other than sex. I don't really understand any basis for it not to be.

From that business insider article on the transman who fled the country:

"We can't help that this transphobia will exist as they go on their journey," Dubilewski said. "But we promise people that, if they're brave, and if they trust themselves, and if they trust us and they have the input and they have information for the next steps of their journey.

I'm not going to judge anyone for running away but I really dislike the framing of it as a brave, morally correct act.

As an aside, I don't think anyone is being forced to fight in Ukraine. Lots of people, both men and women are freely signing up. I thought the 'conscripts' were just stopped from leaving so they would stay in their jobs and keep the country running.

@happydappy2

This just illustrates what a 1st world problem gender ideology really is. When the sh*t hits the fan and everyone has a stark reality check-men are men.

There have been heart wrenching pictures of Fathers kissing their children goodbye, as they have to stay and fight. Young men I'm sure are terrified they will be killed in this war-it is horrific.

But just like women can't identify out of their sex to avoid being raped or pregnant, men can't identify out of their sex either in times of war.

100%

@AgnesNaismith

I agree that legal documentation should be honoured. However, I would like to understand the exact reasoning behind why women and children are allowed to go before stating an opinion!

Is that a serious question?

Yes @KimikosNightmare it is - not because I don’t agree with it myself, but that reasoning would give a basis to argue whether a trans woman should be allowed to leave due to their reassigned gender.

The cynic in means wonders how many of these TW would suddenly remember they are men if the situation was somehow reversed and being Women was actually a disadvantage in terms of leaving. I can’t imagine what that scenario would entail but making the point that these men can pick and choose which ‘identity’ serves them best.

Bottom line is, the border guards realised they were men so no matter how many times they stamp their feet and insist they are women their self ID isn’t cutting any ice and they clearly do not even look convincingly female.

All of that said, I feel very sorry for any Ukrainian who is being forced to stay against their will.

@BootsAndRoots

*If I was a man of fighting age in Ukraine I would quickly cross-dress to get out of having to join the army.

Has no one cottoned onto the fact that many men lie about being trans for their own personal benefit? To get out of conflict, to win medals in women's sport, to get an easier life in prison etc*

People can have their own views on the trans/gender debate of course. But I’d say in this instance, people living in a wealthy and peaceful country should probably be keeping their views to themselves about who should be allowed to leave and who should be made to stay and fight and possibly kill/die in a far away war. It’s pretty distasteful.

Yes, awful to have to fight and defend your country but this is a real life-threatening situation, and trans women should admit they are men and step up. As a PP said, women don't have the luxury of 'changing sex' or whatever they say they are doing, in order to avoid rape and abuse. Also difficult for trans men, wonder how many of those are stepping up and claiming to be men so they can stay and fight? Horrible situation for all involved, but biology must trump feelings.

@ginghamstarfish
Must be nice getting to tell people to “step up” from the comfort and safety of the UK.

@Kendodd

As an aside, I don't think anyone is being forced to fight in Ukraine. Lots of people, both men and women are freely signing up. I thought the 'conscripts' were just stopped from leaving so they would stay in their jobs and keep the country running.

Yes, I've seen footage of train workers, paramedics, firefighters, farmers - all essential workers. And to keep an army functioning requires all manner of non-combatant support services. Of course there's also been footage of shopkeepers becoming snipers!

Many, many women are remaining behind to fight. Or to provide essential services. I prefer to amplify their gender non conforming efforts.

If Ukrainian men don’t like conscription, then I encourage them to advocate for themselves and encourage the Ukrainian government to reevaluate its policy.

It is worth noting that Corporal Klinger dressed as a woman in order to get a psychiatric discharge, or Section 8. That is, he dressed as a woman in order to be seen as crazy, not because identifying (he didn’t) as a woman would get him out of anything.

How ‘far’ we have come - back then a man dressing as a women was deemed to be insane, or ‘crazy’. Now - men can actually become women, according to TRAs.

@flygirl1983

https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-how-a-transgender-man-escaped-russias-invasion-2022-3?amp

I'm sure it was the nail polish that fooled everyone.

I bet there are loads of men who had to leave behind their elderly parents and join the fight. Why is this man as they wish to be known so special? You either change gender or you don't - in this case it makes a complete farce of any argument a TRA could muster against trans women being allowed to leave the country.

@happydappy2

This just illustrates what a 1st world problem gender ideology really is. When the sh*t hits the fan and everyone has a stark reality check-men are men.

There have been heart wrenching pictures of Fathers kissing their children goodbye, as they have to stay and fight. Young men I'm sure are terrified they will be killed in this war-it is horrific.

But just like women can't identify out of their sex to avoid being raped or pregnant, men can't identify out of their sex either in times of war.

This.

It highlights the cherry picking that goes on.

In Ukraine is possible to get full gender reassignment which leads to all documentation in the new gender. Self-ID doesn't have any legal standing there.

Ukraine doesn't allow men to leave the country, but they definitely don't force people who don't want to fight to fight. They can do their civilian work, work in logistics, ... Even those who want to join the defence often do policing & checkpoint duties which isn't the full blown war (not trying to diminish the hardship and risks of that work). Big part of Ukrainian defence success is about their determination. Actually, I read that about 20% of those in active defense are women.

I'm in one of the target countries for refugees and the stats as of now are 55% children, 36% women of all ages (with disproportionately low number of those aged 20-30, seems many young childfree women choose to remain), less than 10% men (vaste majority of them over 60).

Given only a small number of childfree women is leaving Ukraine now, the self identified transwomen aren't left back in otherwise women free environment. All things considered, trying to leave with the self-ID argument seems a bit selfish.

God love them, @zoeFromCity.

55% children? Jesus wept.

The Guardian article discussed a couple, male bodied - one with legal gender reassignment, the other non-binary. Whatever about the former- I can see the argument that the state having granted the reassignment should honour that - how on earth could conscription work if self-ID as non binary without surgery got people out of it?

Ukraine is quite traditional on sex roles, as far as I can tell,

Yes.

More so than the UK for sure.

The direction is that women can more easily step into traditionally male roles, such as to fight and die.

This video is clearly staged for effect but does show the feelings of many women. The 'refugee' priority is for many the safety of the children.

twitter.com/Shtirlitz53/status/1500870387869102083?s=20&t=LruhRWuNUHxGLWt5ZlMfMw

The transexuals I saw trying to flee seemed to be genuine and I understand their fear. Perhaps they should stay and contribute in some way, but I am far away in a safe space and do not live anything like their lives.

I saw a sympathetic article from France on a transwoman who was not allowed to cross the border. She stated that people should be talking about discrimination and transphobia, not just the war.