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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Lia Thomas - Social Media

126 replies

waterbabys · 26/03/2022 08:24

Honestly this is just a rant.

I have now seen at least 4 or 5 people on my social media (friends and family so cannot delete them) who have ZERO background or interest in sport, now sharing articles defending Lia's right to swim with females. I feel like I'm going mad. Every time I see posts like this I want to challenge them, I know all the facts & stats because as an ex-national swimmer I've followed this story intently, but ultimately I'm a coward afraid for my job.

😩 RIP women's sport. I feel like giving up.

OP posts:
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6
Outwiththenorm · 26/03/2022 09:04

Same here. I’ve been tempted to reply with the picture showing the three female winners on the 3rd place podium while Lia stands alone on the 1st, and not say anything else. Yet!

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 26/03/2022 09:23

Zero interest in sport or zero interest in thoroughly thinking through the issue? Most of the people supporting things are going to feel embarassed when they realise what they have actually been supporting. I know what you mean about being a coward. It's hard to stand up for what you believe (and for women therefore) in a world where bullying and harassment is so rife towards women who do so. If you feel brave enough to take a step and maybe share an alternate view, Mumsnet is here as support!

RedRobyn2021 · 26/03/2022 09:31

I haven't seen anyone I know share anything, but I'm not really sure how anyone could defend the fact that Lia has an advantage

MistyFrequencies · 26/03/2022 09:35

It just completely blows my mind that anyone can defend a male swimming with females and say there is no advantage. It's so fucking obvious and it infuriates me.

ApplesinmyPocket · 26/03/2022 10:03

It is indeed very annoying. It's as if trans trumps all other achievements - Lia must be applauded and allowed to swim with the girls and no-one feels anything but admiration because obviously a man deciding he is actually a woman is a much much greater achievement than having a huge talent for a sport and training for years to the highest level. Hmm

DazzlePaintedBattlePants · 26/03/2022 10:05

I’ve found the opposite. People who previously wouldn’t have commented on anything related to feminism or equality are now piping up - both online and IRL - saying that Lia is out of order and what the hell is going on? Quite heartening.

Bolets · 26/03/2022 10:53

I would reply with this image, and "does this seem fair?"

Lia Thomas - Social Media
reesewithoutaspoon · 26/03/2022 11:07

Lia Thomas is a legacy admission to UPenn based on their older brother Wes's swimming success. Lia failed in the men's division. Unpick that one.

NancyDrawed · 26/03/2022 11:07

It might have been on here (I lose track of what I have seen where) that someone said that if Lia Thomas had gone poolside in Speedos and with his hair cut in a short back and sides it would not be difficult for those defending him to see the glaring unfairness of it all.

DrBlackbird · 26/03/2022 11:11

I wish that all the other competitors would just refuse to compete. Let Lia win 1st, 2nd and 3rd. They might reconsider the thrill of victory then. However I know that for many young women, competing at the varsity level on scholarships is the only way to afford univeristy.

RVN123 · 26/03/2022 11:20

@NancyDrawed

It might have been on here (I lose track of what I have seen where) that someone said that if Lia Thomas had gone poolside in Speedos and with his hair cut in a short back and sides it would not be difficult for those defending him to see the glaring unfairness of it all.
Don't you know that wearing a one-piece and having long hair makes Lia a woman? I thought this was what we all thought!

The swim suit actually CHANGES their sex. It's amazing.

DuckDuckNo · 26/03/2022 11:23

Same here. My friends and acquaintances, mostly middle aged women with children, seem really invested in defending male genderfeels. It's baffling.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 26/03/2022 11:26

I've seen the opposite - this is peaking people in massive numbers - especially men. It might of course be a generational issue?

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 26/03/2022 11:28

@DuckDuckNo

Same here. My friends and acquaintances, mostly middle aged women with children, seem really invested in defending male genderfeels. It's baffling.
#BeKind is one of the worst gendered restrictions ever to be imposed on women. It's also, cunningly, one of the most divisive.

#NotAllSnakes

CatherinaJTV · 26/03/2022 11:37

@Outwiththenorm

Same here. I’ve been tempted to reply with the picture showing the three female winners on the 3rd place podium while Lia stands alone on the 1st, and not say anything else. Yet!
good thing you didn't, because that photo has been used to spread hate, where this is what the woman in the middle, Erica Sullivan says:

“As a woman in sports, I can tell you that I know what the real threats to women’s sports are: sexual abuse and harassment, unequal pay and resources and a lack of women in leadership. Transgender girls and women are nowhere on this list”

She was on the side having a picture taken with her two Tokyo team mates, but she totally supports Lia Thomas and has even written an op ed about it: www.newsweek.com/why-im-proud-support-trans-athletes-like-lia-thomas-opinion-1689192

FrancescaContini · 26/03/2022 11:39

I don’t think that I could remain friends or acquaintances with anyone who remained so wilfully and stubbornly blind to the issue.

CatherinaJTV · 26/03/2022 11:42

@DuckDuckNo

Same here. My friends and acquaintances, mostly middle aged women with children, seem really invested in defending male genderfeels. It's baffling.
I can only speak for myself, middle aged, white cishet mom of two:

I have seen all the arguments from the late 80ies and especially when marriage equality became a topic. All this screeching about perverts, the safety of our children, our spaces, our institutions. I've seen the effect it has had on my LG sibs and colleagues, I've seen how the same people who were homophobic were proponents of the most rigid sexist gender expectations (like "now that you are pregnant, surely you'll stop working"). I recognise all of this as anti-feminist. Same sh*t. It's no wonder that the people who stand with GCs are (mostly) on the (far) right of the political spectrum. It is not about "being nice", it literally is defending our rights from that crowd.

NancyDrawed · 26/03/2022 11:43

From the article Catherina shared:

And when she does, she deserves, like anyone else in this sport, to be celebrated for her hard-won success, not labeled a cheater simply because of her identity*.

It's not his identity makes me think of Lia as a cheat - it is the fact that as a fully grown man, he has physiological advantages over the women. If he is not breaking any rules, then strictly speaking he is not cheating. Morally, he is in the wrong. I couldn't care less what he wants to call himself or how he wants to dress. But if he is swimming competitively, it should be against other members of his sex class.

And I'm not sure that Lia's victories were 'hard won'

FrancescaContini · 26/03/2022 11:46

@CatherinaJTV

You lost me the minute you referred to yourself as “cishet”. Can’t be bothered to work that out and besides, who cares?

By the way, have you actually read the OP? Your post is a non sequitur.

RVN123 · 26/03/2022 11:50

“As a woman in sports, I can tell you that I know what the real threats to women’s sports are: sexual abuse and harassment, unequal pay and resources and a lack of women in leadership. Transgender girls and women are nowhere on this list”

This statement is confusing to me.
Lack of woman in leadership? Would she accept a man who says he is a woman in a leadership role? She obviously has some idea of what she thinks a woman IS, or she wouldn't have said it. I suppose it depends on what she defines a "woman" as.
Sexual abuse and harassment? What about the other swimmers who have said that Thomas makes them feel uncomfortable in their own changing rooms? Do their feelings not count? Are they lying?

How can posting a photo with no comment be considered "hate"? Most people will only be looking at the sheer physical disparities between the woman and Thomas. Is noting and observing those differences "hate"?

People are already going a long way to minimise or downplay those physical differences, there are doctored photos online of Thomas and lies about their height. Why would people be interested in doing that? Could it be that they know the real statistics make it harder for them to perpetuate the idea that there isn't really that much of a difference between men and women?

AeroMocha · 26/03/2022 11:51

yes I find it frustrating too.. Poeople I know are sharing that photo (possibly photoshopped) of a very tall, broad woman, playing on the same volleyball (?) team as a tiny Japanese woman (about half the size), and then commenting how it's ridiculous to say that Thomas shouldn't swim because of 'biological advantages', when there are huge biological advantages between women. You know that if they thought about it properly for a minute, they'd see why it's a stupid argument and comparison, but they don't, and won't. They just keep nodding and liking and agreeing that it's a very valid point, and yes of course Thomas should be allowed to swim against females, so what if there's a tiny biological advantage.
depressing.

FrancescaContini · 26/03/2022 11:55

@AeroMocha

yes I find it frustrating too.. Poeople I know are sharing that photo (possibly photoshopped) of a very tall, broad woman, playing on the same volleyball (?) team as a tiny Japanese woman (about half the size), and then commenting how it's ridiculous to say that Thomas shouldn't swim because of 'biological advantages', when there are huge biological advantages between women. You know that if they thought about it properly for a minute, they'd see why it's a stupid argument and comparison, but they don't, and won't. They just keep nodding and liking and agreeing that it's a very valid point, and yes of course Thomas should be allowed to swim against females, so what if there's a tiny biological advantage. depressing.
These people must be beyond stupid Angry
EricCartmansMagicalUnderpants · 26/03/2022 12:03

How can posting a photo with no comment be considered "hate"? Most people will only be looking at the sheer physical disparities between the woman and Thomas. Is noting and observing those differences "hate"?

Well there is a requirement for people to turn the other way and not notice these differences, so noticing, and then daring to have the audacity to comment on the unfairness / cheating behaviour, is hate in the eyes of the woke / #bekind types. After all, women are only support humans, there simply to validate men / reproduce. Women have clearly lost their way / forgotten how they should behave.

EwwSprouts · 26/03/2022 12:04

Sorry OP your silence will be seen at best as acquiesence if not agreement. As a retired national swimmer you have expert insight. If you feel unable to say anything online due to your job can you at least speak to people face to face?

arethereanyleftatall · 26/03/2022 12:07

Be brave. Challenge them. You are in the right. It's like the Emperor's new clothes. Most people are waiting for someone else to stand up for women so that they can agree.

Having seen nothing on fb from my own news feed about lia, I posted about two days ago, obviously against Lia. Unanimous support. My post got more 'likes' than anything I've ever posted.