Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lia Thomas - Social Media

126 replies

waterbabys · 26/03/2022 08:24

Honestly this is just a rant.

I have now seen at least 4 or 5 people on my social media (friends and family so cannot delete them) who have ZERO background or interest in sport, now sharing articles defending Lia's right to swim with females. I feel like I'm going mad. Every time I see posts like this I want to challenge them, I know all the facts & stats because as an ex-national swimmer I've followed this story intently, but ultimately I'm a coward afraid for my job.

😩 RIP women's sport. I feel like giving up.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
arethereanyleftatall · 27/03/2022 15:34

@CoastalWave

The only bit about this that I don't understand is this...

Why does she even want to compete against biological girls? Surely it's a hollow victory? Where is the achievement? It's like my daughter who plays tennis getting a walkover in the final. No victory unless there's actually a fair contest.

She needs her own category. Make it fair. Swim against other girls who used to be boys.

As for the girls who currently have to swim against her - surely they should all boycott the races?!

Her own category is silly. There'd be only one in it. Mind she'd win that too. I want my own category too. Women who are 5 feet tall and 8 stone only. Otherwise it's not fair. Two categories are all that's needed - male and female. Lia is male. Women don't boycott it because they've trained hard and their scholarships are dependent on their times.
BootsAndRoots · 27/03/2022 16:11

Physiologically there is no difference between Thomas and a man going through prostate cancer treatment.

Physiologically there is a difference between Thomas and transsexual women who have had their testicles removed and regularly inject oestrogen.

DERFDogmaExlusionary · 27/03/2022 17:29

as an ex-national swimmer I've followed this story intently, but ultimately I'm a coward afraid for my job.

OP as a national swimmer, you're amazing and an inspiration to others. Maya's ruling means that you cannot lose your job. And you could make your facebook profile invisible to the world and practise not adding work colleagues?

AeroMocha · 28/03/2022 09:04

This is the sort of thing I am now seeing on my social media. It makes it hard to argue against, because at first glance, anyone disagreeing seems uncompassionate and intolerant. Most people aren't asking about the statistics or the claims, but just responding to the message, and of course everyone wants to promote acceptance and understanding and reduce suicide rates. They just aren't making any further logical leaps than that. But I don't have any other statistic to hand either, so I don't comment.

My thoughts - 86% reporting 'suicidality' - what does it mean and where is the statistic from? 56% of trans youth having attempted suicide - I can't see what the footnote is, so not sure where this stat is from (It might be online where the actual speech is reported, haven't had time to check yet), so I don't know how true it is. It does sound high and very concerning if true. But despite the speech saying that 'acceptance and connection' is the way to reduce suicidality, is there any evidence for this? Is allowing them to play sports the way to show acceptance? Are their suicide rates high for other reasons that are not specific to being trans?

This seems to imply that 'trans kids' are an accepted thing, and stops people questioning that idea in itself. Chidlren who are confused about gender or who say they want to be the opposite, yes. Does that make them trans kids? How would that be defined? How was that defined in the various research that is quoted?

Lots of emotive language. "it's all about four kids. that's it." But it's not, is it - it's part of a much bigger issue than that. Are those kids playing sports to find friends and feel part of something? Who has looked into that - is that what they've said, or is this just a soundbite that sounds good in a speech? How do we know they aren't after trophies or scholarships? Does it not relate to the broader issue of acceptance of trans athletes in bigger competitions, which is about much more than 'four kids'? And surely it will soon be about a lot more than 'four kids', if you are trying to get people to agree that this is a sensible thing to allow and that it reduces suicide rates.

What girls are not playing sports as a result of that (one?) boy playing girls sports? If there is more than one girl who has chosen not to play because of a boy in the changing room, or who has been displaced by a boy on the team, is that not one fewer girl who wants to find friends and feel part of something? Does the fact that she hasn't threatened to commit suicide mean that she isn't as important?

Does not allowing 'trans kids' to play on the opposite sex teams actually mean that they aren't accepted and don't have a place in the state, or that people don't love them or want them to live? It just sounds very manipulative to me, and reading in things that have not been said at all.

Also, it seems to normalise the idea. While there might not be huge disadvantages to allowing a few kids to play on a non-competitive team at school, that paves the way for people thinking that it's something that should be accepted, that it's bigoted not to allow it, etc, and that will spread upwards into more competitive sports. Meanwhile, even at the grass roots level, there might be some invisible girls who are choosing not to participate as a result, and that too has longer term disadvantages.

Social media is incredibly superficial, so I shouldn't be surprised that people just click like and love and share away, trying to be very compassionate and tolerant, and I know that it comes from a good place. They aren't in the right place to get into heavy discussions or be questioned on any of it. At the same time, that's how things like this spread, the idea that trans-kids have such an awful time that can only be relieved by people accepting them totally as the opposite sex. And suicide is such a serious issue that it's like nobody wants to go there and say 'hang on, is that really what's happening?' because you are always told never to doubt someone expressing those thoughts. So I do really think that most of the people I know posting stuff like this are coming from a good place. And that's partly why it's such a battle to get them to consider any other perspective.

Lia Thomas - Social Media
AeroMocha · 28/03/2022 09:05

And i know that specific speech/meme isn't about Lia Thomas in particular, but it's being posted in response to the controversy, along with various other similar ones.

FrancescaContini · 28/03/2022 09:31

@AeroMocha

For Women Scotland has an excellent Did you know? fact sheet on their site that debunks the suicide myths. It also provides a wealth of very interesting material on the issue.

If someone could make a link, that’d be great - I can’t do it, sorry Blush

AeroMocha · 28/03/2022 09:38

Thanks, I"ll have a look. I expect the people who've shared this post will say it doesn't apply because it's American (they are also American, some of the ones posting it). And they will believe a government person making a speech - despite the fact that politicians lie or mislead about all kinds of things, somehow this sort of thing, with stats, is just assumed to be true (perhaps because it's too frightening an issue to want to question and thus potentially cause more harm by not believing?)

TheAbbotOfUnreason · 28/03/2022 09:54

Those figures seem very high compared to those from The Trevor Project 2021 survey?

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2021/?section=Introduction

Lia Thomas - Social Media
AeroMocha · 28/03/2022 10:58

yes, they do seem high in comparison - although the stats from that survey don't distinguish between LGBTQ etc, so there's little data about what proportion of trans children (however that is defined) specifically consider or attempt suicide. It could be greater or less than those figures. My feeling is also still that the figures show some sort of difficulty with mental health, not necessarily because of being confused about gender. It could be that gender confusion is the result of the mental health issue and feeling of not fitting in. Also little evidence in there that seeing a child as trans (and letting them play sports etc with the other team) actually reduces the suicidal thoughts. They say that 'research shows...' but don't specify which research.

And yet, questioning these things on social media just makes people think you are a conservative/republican/bigot who is unkind and not being compassionate or tolerant, and that you don't care about trans children and suicide.

Clymene · 28/03/2022 11:11

Honestly I think most teenagers think about suicide. And there's a vast difference between that and actually making a serious attempt rather than a 'cry for help'.

Thankfully, very few teenagers actually kill themselves though which I would suggest means thar very few of them actually want to die.

When self ID was kicked into the long grass, mimmymum tweeted that she knew of two children who had killed themselves as a result. It was a lie. A wicked, wicked lie.

TheAbbotOfUnreason · 28/03/2022 11:17

yes, they do seem high in comparison - although the stats from that survey don't distinguish between LGBTQ etc, so there's little data about what proportion of trans children (however that is defined) specifically consider or attempt suicide.

It’s a survey of LGBTQ+ young people and separates the stats into LGB (except they call these kids “cis” Hmm) and Trans / NB.

For Trans / NB is states that 52% consider and 20% attempt.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 28/03/2022 11:30

@TheAbbotOfUnreason

yes, they do seem high in comparison - although the stats from that survey don't distinguish between LGBTQ etc, so there's little data about what proportion of trans children (however that is defined) specifically consider or attempt suicide.

It’s a survey of LGBTQ+ young people and separates the stats into LGB (except they call these kids “cis” Hmm) and Trans / NB.

For Trans / NB is states that 52% consider and 20% attempt.

There are various threads with analysis of that SW survey. It was done last year when it played such an unvalidated part of the NHS toolkit for allies etc.
TheAbbotOfUnreason · 28/03/2022 11:46

It was more the point that even The Trevor Project’s self reported figures are much lower than the ones in the screenshot posted by AeroMocha.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 28/03/2022 12:01

@TheAbbotOfUnreason

yes, they do seem high in comparison - although the stats from that survey don't distinguish between LGBTQ etc, so there's little data about what proportion of trans children (however that is defined) specifically consider or attempt suicide.

It’s a survey of LGBTQ+ young people and separates the stats into LGB (except they call these kids “cis” Hmm) and Trans / NB.

For Trans / NB is states that 52% consider and 20% attempt.

Some analysis here. EmbarrassingAdmissions Sun 13-Jun-21 22:55:16 (it wouldn't bookmark).

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4269384-NHS-badges?pg=2&messages=100

Analysis of the suicide claims by FPFW:

fairplayforwomen.com/suicide/

Analysis Transgender Trend

www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-school-report-what-does-suicide-rate-mean/

ChateauMargaux · 28/03/2022 14:53

@waterbabys if you feel able to speak up, there are some indisputable points you could raise.. not least the fact that we have the large scale longitudinal study of the World Records to show us that males have an advantage over females in most disciplines.

Sport has been divided by sex class because on average, males outperform females to such an extent that not to do so, would result in very few or no females participating in elite events. It is not about whether some women could beat some men in some competitions on some days. It is about global averages over time.

There is ample evidence that male puberty results in, on average, greater lung capacity, blood volume, strength and muscle density than female puberty.

www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/08/the-golden-ratio-the-one-number-that-describes-how-mens-world-records-compare-with-womens/260758/.

In 2019, the court of arbitration of sport wrote:
' is the right of female athletes, who are relevantly biologically disadvantaged vis-à-vis male athletes, to be able to compete against other female athletes and to achieve the benefits of athletic success.

This is because the reason for the separation between male and female categories in competitive athletics is ultimately founded on biology rather than legal status. The purpose of having separate categories is to protect a class of individuals who lack certain insuperable performance advantages from having to compete against individuals who possess those insuperable advantages. In this regard, the fact that a person is recognised in law as a woman and identifies as a woman does not necessarily mean that they lack those insuperable performance advantages associated with certain biological traits that predominate in individuals who are generally (but not always) recognised in law as males and self-identify as males. It is human biology, not legal status or gender identity, that ultimately determines which individuals possess the physical traits which give rise to that insuperable advantage and which do not."
(the executive summary is no longer in the place it was... I have a copy if you want it)

The IOC 2021 Framework also sets out the need to ensure that everyone can participate in fair competition where no participant has an unfair and disproportionate advantage over the rest and suggests that the design of these measures should be done in consultation with a cross section of affected athletes.

The Framework does place considerable weight on inclusion but I struggle to see how that can be balanced with the principle of fairness also included in the framework.

stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/News/2021/11/IOC-Framework-Fairness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf?_ga=2.183171366.1893905408.1648472831-1997569821.1648472831

DdraigGoch · 29/03/2022 00:10

In what way is Thomas amazing?

Well Thomas has an amazing cheek to push in like this.

Mexican House Thief levels of amazing CFery.

nepeta · 29/03/2022 03:22

The sample in the Trevor Project is a convenience sample. Nothing specifically wrong with doing that, except that any attempt to generalise from it to all young people in similar demographic groups are tricky. The results, strictly speaking, apply only to the teens who participated in the study.

This is because the respondents chose to take part in the study and were not randomly drawn. Those who choose to participate are likely to be different from those who do not choose to participate, I would think.

In particular, those who don't choose to take part might be less likely to have suicidal ideation or attempts or not be as centered on their gender identities.

And I'd like to know where the 'targeted ads' where placed. This could matter, too, if they were on websites where particular topics (say anxiety, depression etc.) were a major topic for discussion or if they were on websites which were relatively neutral (not gender-political or at least sent to many sites with different gender policies.

It is sad that so many social science surveys now use convenience sampling.

nepeta · 29/03/2022 03:42

The Trevor Report tried to validate their convenience sample by comparing the suicidal ideation and suicide attempt rates to the 2019 CDC survey. This is a good thing to do, but as far as I can tell, the CDC survey covered only LGB youths and it is unknown what their gender identity was. So the pillar comparisons at the bottom right of the page you get from there

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2021/?section=SuicideMentalHealth

are a little tricky to interpret.

Are they comparing like with like? We cannot be sure as we don't know how many transgender and nonbinary students who also were LGB the CDC 2019 survey included. They are just called LGB there, not LGBT.

The CDC 2019 survey also reports that 20% of girls and 11% of boys had attempted suicide at least once during the previous twelve months. www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/su/su6901a6.htm?s_cid=su6901a6_w

but the survey does not say anything about gender identity. So it's difficult to evaluate how good the validation attempt is.

Doyouknowthe · 29/03/2022 21:42

I've just seen this music vid, called "No Thank You" from Terven Priestess , and I think this sums it all up pretty well.

mcduffy · 17/05/2022 11:05

Just seen this highlighted by the Twitter algorithm based on my likes;

www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/wsca-releases-position-on-transgender-swimming-inclusion-fairness-cannot-coexist-in-current-model/

Mandodari · 17/05/2022 12:20

@Whatalovelydaffodil
Madonna got it right:

"She discussed her muse, David Bowie, who “embodied male and female spirit” and “made me think there were no rules. But I was wrong. There are no rules – if you’re a boy. There are rules if you’re a girl.”"

knittingaddict · 17/05/2022 12:30

I don't understand how science can be so easily dismissed.

My daughter suggested a podcast that sounded right up my street. It's called Science Vs. In one of the most recent podcasts in the series there is one about Trans issues, including participation in sports. I read the comments before listening and it is clearly pro Trans and I'm trying to get together enough courage to listen. How can a supposedly pro science podcast come to those conclusions? I suspect that it will be a frustrating listen.

If any one wants to listen and report back, so that I don't have to, feel free.

Moodycow78 · 17/05/2022 12:50

I've deleted anyone who spouts this drivel, family or not Tbh.

LeftFootForward · 17/05/2022 13:25

I'm sorry OP I don't have time to read the whole thread as I've a meeting coming up but my one contribution would be that unfortunately people love a (media sponsored) bandwagon, especially if it makes them feel a bit superior.

You only have to look at the last 2 years and all the awful I'm more caring and mindful of everyone's health than you are posts to see that.

I believe it's called virtue signalling and I find it a really useful way of sorting out the idiots from everyone else 😁

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 17/05/2022 13:46

two women on the same volleyball team, do we impose a cut off? Why not?

Because male puberty confers multiple physical advantages. Not only height. Height is just the most visually obvious.