Scotland GRA

[Cismyfatarse]

Can I ask people to fill this in? Scotland is probably going to vote against the needs of women and girls. We will then need to raise money for the court battles.

https://yourviews.parliament.scot/ehrcj/gender-recognition-reform-bill/?utmsource=twitter&utmmmedium=spehrcj&utmmterm=&utmcontent=38d44a5a-ba1c-4271-b2ce-b222beca97b8&utmm_campaign=ongoing

It basically makes sure that one is the correct gender on the registry of marriages, and on ones death certificate.

So two things that the trans person doesn't see (except when signing the register when getting married).

Does it actually say a 'gender' (or sex) on the marriage register? Because it doesn't on the certificate. And nobody ever sees their own death certificate, obviously.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant: get married in dignity and die in dignity. Where dignity means "as the correct gender"

I don't think there's any restriction on what someone can wear to their own wedding, so if a male wants to perform femininity at his wedding he is perfectly able to (and a female can perform masculinity).

I'm pretty sure gender performance would be pretty low down someone's list of important things to think about when they are dying (but I could be mistaken). How does someone die 'as the correct gender' anyway?

[quote ElaineFuchs]@Rainbowshit

This governmental report seems to suggest that trans kids are protected from discrimination in schools by the 2010 Equality Act, not by virtue of having a gender recognition certificate: researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9078/CBP-9078.pdf[/quote]
But kids currently are unable to legally change sex. It clearly puts more pressure on boundaries around who can sleep in the girls accommodation that wouldn't have been there currently if boys have a bit of paper saying they are legally girls.

It's obvious to everyone else. I'm not sure why you are struggling with this. Oh wait... 🤔

It's a bit long to write out "people other than trans people" or "people who aren't trans" every time.

WTF would we want to centre trans people in every thought or conversation we have? Talk about narcissistic.

Fuck of with cis indeed.

@tricervixtops

It's a bit long to write out "people other than trans people" or "people who aren't trans" every time.

WTF would we want to centre trans people in every thought or conversation we have? Talk about narcissistic.

Fuck of with cis indeed.

I mean, it's all this board ever seems to talk about; you're obsessed with trans people. What a waste of this potentially useful space for organizing around real feminist topics that matter...

repeat:
Saying "I'm not cis, I'm normal" has real "I'm not heterosexual, I'm normal" energy. Can you see how these are transphobic and homophobic?

@OldCrone

It basically makes sure that one is the correct gender on the registry of marriages, and on ones death certificate.

So two things that the trans person doesn't see (except when signing the register when getting married).

Does it actually say a 'gender' (or sex) on the marriage register? Because it doesn't on the certificate. And nobody ever sees their own death certificate, obviously.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant: get married in dignity and die in dignity. Where dignity means "as the correct gender"

I don't think there's any restriction on what someone can wear to their own wedding, so if a male wants to perform femininity at his wedding he is perfectly able to (and a female can perform masculinity).

I'm pretty sure gender performance would be pretty low down someone's list of important things to think about when they are dying (but I could be mistaken). How does someone die 'as the correct gender' anyway?

When getting married in the UK, one has to declare oneself husband or wife. This is demeaning to trans women and men respectively, for obvious reasons.

Having a correct death certificate might not be important to you, but it is important to some people.

Ah, Elaine, you’re not getting it. No one is saying “cis” (a slur) is the same as “normal”. We are saying we don’t need a prefix. Save the prefix for those trying to own a word that isn’t theirs.

You do realise that this is the Sex and Gender board? A specific board to specifically discuss issues relating to sex and gender?

Please don't get into that old chestnut of 'that's the only feminist issue you're interested in' because that's nonsense. The women on here are interested in and take action on many feminist issues.

I've reported your last post for your use of a slur.

What a waste of this potentially useful space for organizing around real feminist topics that matter...

I'm sure it has been explained to you before but just for clarity. This is the most important issue for feminism currently. If women are not able to define themselves clearly as a group without males then how can we fight for our rights?

@Waitwhat23

A hospital in which abuse happens is not a safe hospital, independently of the perpetrator's passport or birth certificate.

A woman was raped on a single sex ward and the hospital denied it happened because there were 'no males present'. They were lying. To the person raped and also to the Police. They were able to do that because of an ideology which insists that TWA(literally)W and which influenced Trust policies to lie.

It's another example of the silencing affect. Women can no longer raise concerns about safety issues or they are branded a transphobe. They cannot raise instances of actual abuse or be called a liar.

the scandal is that the hospital is unsafe, this case has NOTHING to do with GRA reform.

When getting married in the UK, one has to declare oneself husband or wife. This is demeaning to trans women and men respectively, for obvious reasons.

You could campaign to have the legal declaration changed so that it doesn't require those words.

Having a correct death certificate might not be important to you, but it is important to some people.

Isn't it more important to have an accurate record than a fiction for the benefit of the person who will never see it?

I really want to be so open minded and do not want to be placing anyone into a marginalised place where their needs are diminished. I’m listening so carefully to the arguments for trans people and their is nothing but echo chambered rhetoric that absolutely diminishes the felt experience of a woman.
To claim it as a feeling is appropriation.

When I die , 100 years form now when only my bones are left someone will be able to tell that I was female, from my bones , my internal infrastructure.

There are ways to support anyone who is suffering in their own body but I’ve yet to see a solution that does hugely endanger women & girls & I am trying.

To the two posters who are advocating for def Id your responses don’t go to the questions at all.

the scandal is that the hospital is unsafe, this case has NOTHING to do with GRA reform.

It's to do with the GRA. Which requires the staff to lie to other patients if there is a man on the ward with a GRC which makes him legally female.

@Rainbowshit

In your example they were legally boys. No right to be there. Now they could have a piece of paper that says they are legally girls. It'll allow them to demand to be there. There's.a very clear change there. Why are you not able to see that?

in your example, they were still boys, just lying and cheating. They can already do that.

Apologies for spelling , my phone is broken

@CatherinaJTV

So how do you separate the liars and those who are ‘authentic’? Or are the women and girls they are attacking just collateral damage?

@sauvignonblancplz

I really want to be so open minded and do not want to be placing anyone into a marginalised place where their needs are diminished. I’m listening so carefully to the arguments for trans people and their is nothing but echo chambered rhetoric that absolutely diminishes the felt experience of a woman. To claim it as a feeling is appropriation.

When I die , 100 years form now when only my bones are left someone will be able to tell that I was female, from my bones , my internal infrastructure.

There are ways to support anyone who is suffering in their own body but I’ve yet to see a solution that does hugely endanger women & girls & I am trying.

To the two posters who are advocating for def Id your responses don’t go to the questions at all.

"When I die , 100 years form now when only my bones are left someone will be able to tell that I was female, from my bones , my internal infrastructure. "

www.hindawi.com/journals/janthro/2015/908535/

It's actually very difficult to determine sex from skeletons in general.

"nothing but echo chambered rhetoric"

I would really suggest stepping away from mumsnet, this is a complete GC echo chamber full of dodgy argument and bias.

I mean, it's all this board ever seems to talk about; you're obsessed with trans people. What a waste of this potentially useful space for organizing around real feminist topics that matter...

Did you get lost? Were you looking for this board?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism

The sex and gender board was created to split this topic from other feminist topics. MNHQ thought that was a good idea.

Saying "I'm not cis, I'm normal" has real "I'm not heterosexual, I'm normal" energy. Can you see how these are transphobic and homophobic?

Everyone is who they say they are, except for women who have to be 'cis' women whether they like it or not. Is that right?

@ElaineFuchs

“Determination of skeletal sex is often the first biological characteristic sought after by forensic investigators in cases of discovery of skeletal remains.”

Have you read the article?
Basically discussing the difficulty yes but ultimately allllll the scientific steps to ascertain the sex are vital, and are all lead by the different hormones, minerals and fundament scientific differences that make someone either a male or female , no matter what they think . Biology is real.

@tricervixtops

It's a bit long to write out "people other than trans people" or "people who aren't trans" every time.

WTF would we want to centre trans people in every thought or conversation we have? Talk about narcissistic.

Fuck of with cis indeed.

Because the GRA only affects trans people

And will remain real no matter what someone’s birth/death certificate say.

However whilst I am alive the more pressing matters that have my concern are my safety.

To which the questions challenged no one who is advocating for the rights of people to self I’d are answering.

@ElaineFuchs there's an aura of Professor Alice Roberts around you.

"It's actually very difficult to determine sex from skeletons in general"

Welcome to mumsnet Elaine

in your example, they were still boys, just lying and cheating. They can already do that

No, no they can't already do that because they don't have that bit of paper.

But maybe we're making a step forward here. You admit that some boys will lie and cheat to get a GRC? So you feel there should be some kind of gatekeeping, like maybe proving you have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria?

@CatherinaJTV

Welcome to mumsnet Elaine

Thanks! I hate it!

@Rainbowshit

in your example, they were still boys, just lying and cheating. They can already do that

No, no they can't already do that because they don't have that bit of paper.

But maybe we're making a step forward here. You admit that some boys will lie and cheat to get a GRC? So you feel there should be some kind of gatekeeping, like maybe proving you have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria?

no, I don't think that a boy would lie to get a GRC, but I know they'll lie.

The GRA is not materially changing that.