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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ideas for spreading the word to others - What would it take for you to say : the trans movement isn't what I thought it was?

143 replies

Leafstamp · 18/03/2022 14:00

Some amazing advice and suggestions here for speaking to friends and family.

elizamondegreen.substack.com/p/its-time-to-break-the-awkward-silence?msclkid=a1d855e5a6c311ec99198214e0692b31&s=r

I wonder if any TRA lurkers might also pop by to answer the question in the thread title....

OP posts:
SparklingConsequences · 20/03/2022 19:10

@DrDinosaur

'there's no chemicals that change your phenotypic race'

Hair dye, false tan, and perming lotion have the same effect on your 'phenotypic race' as hormones and surgery do on your 'phenotypic sex.
An entirely cosmetic effect.

Sex hormones are signalling chemicals that modify your genetic expression (how else do you think they work?) and your subsequent phenotype.

Fake tan, weirdly enough, doesn't.

SparklingConsequences · 20/03/2022 19:20

@PrelateChuckles

What does a 'gender abolitionist' believe and how can that be reconciled with the position that gender is important enough to change how a person is recognised in law, policy, society, etc?
cherwell.org/2021/10/09/gender-abolition-why-it-matters/

I'm not quite bonkers enough to realise that this is pie-in-the-sky rn, but a tran can dream (also, the article makes the oft-made mistake of not realising that most trans people have body gender dysphoria, so would still be transsexual, but hey, it would free people from the current toxic gender binary and is a laudable aim)

SparklingConsequences · 20/03/2022 19:22

Anyway, thanks for the responses (aside from the one comparing fake tan with sex hormones which was just ridiculous).

Have a lovely day.

Leafstamp · 20/03/2022 20:04

Although answers to the questions in the OP are interesting, what I was curious about, in terms of hearing from TRAs, is the question in the thread title :

What would it take for you to say : the trans movement isn't what I thought it was?

For example, is this enough: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4507790-Hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-because-attacker-transgender

OP posts:
Roseglen84 · 20/03/2022 21:47

SparklingConsequences
Yes, I do know the issues, thank you..and you're doing the usual thing of not actually naming any harms that scary self-ID would do.

It has no effect on spaces (that's the EA2010)
It has no effect on sports (that's the EA2010 w/ sports authorities)
It has no effect on prisons (that's the EA2010 w/ prison authorities they do their own assessments)

This is just bullshit. The reality is Self ID would undermine the Equality Act, because (and I know this because it's already happened in Ireland) the legislation basically states that by changing gender you are for all legal purposes changing your sex. By filling out a form Hmm.

So yes it would affect spaces for women - it already is (see the story about the women raped on a hospital ward)

Yes it would affect sports for women - it already does (see the story about the man winning the women's swimming trophy)

Yes it would affect prisons - it already has (see Karen White and many others).

These are just a handful of recent examples. So many more are not even being reported.

If you think Self ID would have no affect, you're not looking very hard. Or maybe you just don't want to see, because you're too caught up in your own self delusion. Which the rest of us should not be compelled to participate in.

quack22 · 20/03/2022 21:57

[quote Leafstamp]Although answers to the questions in the OP are interesting, what I was curious about, in terms of hearing from TRAs, is the question in the thread title :

What would it take for you to say : the trans movement isn't what I thought it was?

For example, is this enough: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4507790-Hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-because-attacker-transgender[/quote]
Would you also apply the same logic to BAME/POC/BLM and withdraw or remove support/rights of said group because of individuals committing crimes? That can apply to any demographic, should all gay rights be removed because of individual crimes (just an example). Would it solve anything, self id isn't law so it's happening without self id laws. Why is the entire trans community responsible for rapists? Guilt by association?

quack22 · 20/03/2022 22:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

PrelateChuckles · 20/03/2022 22:08

Yes, I do know the issues, thank you..and you're doing the usual thing of not actually naming any harms that scary self-ID would do.

It has no effect on spaces (that's the EA2010)
It has no effect on sports (that's the EA2010 w/ sports authorities)
It has no effect on prisons (that's the EA2010 w/ prison authorities they do their own assessments)

Come on then - be honest please - what do you understand the issues to be, after listening to women? You handwave about 'the sky falling in' but you haven't addressed them.
What do you think the ideal policies regarding spaces, sports and prisons would be? Be specific.

PrelateChuckles · 20/03/2022 22:09

No one checks your birth certificate before you enter a space or use a service.

That's untrue. I've had to provide them for people.

quack22 · 20/03/2022 22:14

@PrelateChuckles

No one checks your birth certificate before you enter a space or use a service.

That's untrue. I've had to provide them for people.

Such as?
PrelateChuckles · 20/03/2022 22:17

cherwell.org/2021/10/09/gender-abolition-why-it-matters/

I'm not quite bonkers enough to realise that this is pie-in-the-sky rn, but a tran can dream (also, the article makes the oft-made mistake of not realising that most trans people have body gender dysphoria, so would still be transsexual, but hey, it would free people from the current toxic gender binary and is a laudable aim)

Thanks @SparklingConsequences - so to summarise, you believe in the elimination of socialised gender roles. As do gender critical people.

You didn't explain how can that be reconciled with the position that gender is important enough to change how a person is recognised in law, policy, society, etc. Without gender roles, how could anyone 'live as a woman'?
We would only have sex to find out if someone is male or female, and both sexes could be as masculine, feminine, whatever as they please (as I have been arguing for donkeys' years). All I can see in your link is 'Rather, any conception of gender would arise from within, and be part of one’s self-identity, rather than a tool used by society to prescribe a role or identity'.

I still don't understand how you would have gender if males and females were no longer assumed to have inherently different characteristics, interests, attitudes, personalities, capabilities etc (as they do in a gendered society). What would 'gender from within' be? Can you try and articulate it?

PrelateChuckles · 20/03/2022 22:20

Such as?

You... want me to name the people and services I have provided birth certificates for? On a public forum?
I seriously don't care if you don't believe me when I correct you. Carry on being wrong - doesn't affect me.

PrelateChuckles · 20/03/2022 22:27

Sparkling - I, and most transsexuals I know aren't hyperfocussed on the idea of gender identity and I just translate it to refer to my own internal thoughts, opinions etc about my own sexed body..it's the gender dysphoria (in my case, mostly body dysphoria) that is the pain that leads me to change my sex (phenotypic, morphological etc).

Given that I have trouble understand what is meant by 'gender', would it be incorrect or offensive (I'm being genuine! Hate that I have to keep saying this) to describe someone in your situation as 'a person that deeply wishes to be, and be treated/read as, the opposite sex'? Is there any requirement to invoke this indefinable thing called gender?

Before the self-id debates etc I always assumed gender dysphoria to be somewhat of a body dysphoric issue. I have heard so much back and forth on all this (how gender doesn't actually relate to the sexed body/how it does) I don't know where things are tbh.

9toenails · 20/03/2022 22:37

SparklingConsequences: Thank you for the reference. Not really helpful, however: it tells us ‘The term gender identity refers to a person’s innermost sense of their own gender …’, so – far from trying to give us any way of detecting the presence of gender identity – it leaves us pretty much in the dark as to what this latter is actually supposed to be.

(Byrne, I recall, dealt with this and related matters in the piece I referenced. I found his treatment convincing. You?)

The paper you reference explicitly deals, not at all with gender identity per se, but exclusively with the effects of hormone therapy on brain function, effects often inferred, given the paucity of (physical) neuroanatomical evidence. Interesting to some, perhaps, but nothing that might conceivably convince a sceptic of the existence of our elusive gender identity (in Byrne’s sense). How might we detect the presence of this latter? We are left in the dark in which we began.

There is more.

SparklingConsequences, you say you ‘just translate it [ sc the idea of gender identity] to refer to my own internal thoughts, opinions etc about my own sexed body.’

Hmm. If that is what gender identity is – one’s thoughts and opinions about one's body – then, yes indeed everyone has a gender identity in that that everyone thinks about her body sometimes. (Noting, perhaps, that all human bodies are sexed in some way, whilst leaving aside puzzles about what external thoughts might be.)

And, perhaps, we might allow that thoughts about one's body might in some way mis-match with sex and so could be the cause of gender dysphoria. But that cannot stand once we realise that (certain) thoughts about one’s body are what constitute gender dysphoria.

You say your dysphoria is anyway ‘mostly body dysphoria’. I wonder if this means you assimilate your condition to what the NHS calls ‘BDD’ ( ‘Body Dysmorphic Disorder’ see BDD)? – 'a … condition where a person spends a lot of time worrying about flaws in their appearance.'

If your dysphoria is not similar to BDD, I wonder if you might possibly explain the difference between the two? NHS explains gender dysphoria (see gender dysphoria) – as '… a sense of unease that a person may have because of a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity.'

Of course any such explanation might add to the ‘pain’ you have felt, so please refrain if that is the case. I wonder, though, how your ‘non-focus’ on the idea of gender identity sits with the (NHS) notion of gender dysphoria as caused in some way by this very thing.

Of course if Byrne is right and there really is no such thing as gender identity, what will be left of the distinction between BDD and gender dysphoria?

… In any case, the matter stands as before. You have given me no reason to believe there is any such thing as gender identity; neither has the paper you reference. We may have cleared up some of the undergrowth, as it were, but still Byrne’s No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence stands tall.

Given this, far from everyone having a gender identity, it seems rather that we have no reason to think there is any such thing as gender identity.

No?

titchy · 20/03/2022 22:56

Why would you be asked to provide a people's birth certificates @PrelateChuckles - people obtain their own? Or do you supply fake BCs?

And obvs none expects you to name individuals, just an idea of the sorts of situations where people are asked?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/03/2022 23:17

Why should we have to write an essay for every single person when plenty of them exist already?

Because I want to engage back and forth, not be directed to read some shitty "essay". You do understand how discourse works, I imagine?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/03/2022 23:23

It has no effect on prisons (that's the EA2010 w/ prison authorities they do their own assessments)

No, if you have a GRC you are automatically accommodated in the female estate because you are legally considered female "for all (well, most) purposes". There is also case law where a male trans person wasn't granted their demands to be treated differently to other male prisoners due to the fact that they didn't have a GRC. There is no point taking a patronising tone with women here, this isn't our first rodeo and many here understand the legal position at least as well as you do.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/03/2022 23:27

Someone once directed my to a 1 hour video critiquing her essay (I haven't got the time for something like that), but it was clear that they quickly diverted to generalised transphobia from other sources and then made tenuous claims that JKR supported those sorts of people and arguments.

What a surprise. No one has time for that.

PermanentTemporary · 20/03/2022 23:37

Oh God was it Counterpoints or whatever their name is? Who the hell has time to watch one of those videos, they are so long. I've managed 10 minutes once and it was all pretty tenous.

Waitwhat23 · 21/03/2022 06:44

No need for a GRC in Scottish prisons. And as we found out on another thread, even if someone has a GRC, they are not legally obliged to produce it so the SPS will just take their word for it.

"Transgender Policy That Led to Male Sex Offenders in Women's Jails Set to be Reviewed - Women Are Human" www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-policy-that-led-to-male-sex-offenders-in-womens-jails-set-to-be-reviewed/

Unsurprisingly...

"Anger as trans inmates revert to males when they leave Scottish prisons - Scottish Daily Express" www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-trans-inmates-revert-males-25840252

Predatory men taking advantage of Self ID shocker....

Waitwhat23 · 21/03/2022 06:49

Just to point out that Eresh is entirely correct in her last post in terms of the rUK but in Scotland, women's rights are even more down the route of being eliminated. James Morton of the Scottish Trans Alliance has made it his mission to do so.

turbonerd · 21/03/2022 07:21

I dont understand why it is frowned upon to say you are a different «race».
(I do, but hear me out).

There is only one human species on the planet, currently. Only one human race. Slightly different colouring according to historical geographical location, slightly different facial features.

This one human race has two sexes, for reproduction purposes.

To me it is far less preposterous to chop and change between made up «races» than it is to chop and change between the sexes.

And yes, I am aware of global History.

EdithStourton · 21/03/2022 07:34

I've read the whole thread searching for a link that deconstructs what JKR said and explains to me why she's a hideous transphobe.

If you're going to make that claim, and then can't back it up, why should I trust you?

Waitwhat23 · 21/03/2022 08:04

What I can do is link to JKR's essay, for anyone who hasn't seen it before, to show what she actually said - "J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues - J.K. Rowling" www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

What from I've seen, it's apparently not what she said, but the way she said it.

Women, watch your tone! (Sarcastic, obviously).

OnlyTheTitosaurusOfTheIceberg · 21/03/2022 08:36

Reading this thread, my first thought was “you invited trans allies to post, don’t immediately shoot them down when they do”. But that was before I read crap about “cis brains and trans brains”, and lazy “but she’s a billionaire as well as a ‘transphobe’ therefore anything she says can be ignored” ridiculousness to name but a couple of the less convincing arguments on this thread.

For me, something that might make a start in changing my mind in the opposite direction is when doctors are able to determine which are the roughly 15% of gender-questioning children who will persist in their desire to present as the opposite sex well into adulthood and which are the c.85% who will desist, long before any of them are prescribed puberty blockers. Because at the moment we seem to medicalising, and permanently altering, far too many of the 85%.

I’d also be more convinced if people could sort out once and for all whether being transgender is a crippling dysmorphia which gives rise to suicidal ideation if not addressed and must be treated in a medical setting to allow people, especially young people, to gain an approximation of an oppositely-sexed body to relieve that dysmorphia, or if it has nothing to do with profoundly hating one’s sexed body and is simply a means of self-expression whereby there is nothing incongruent in keeping - and indeed, often displaying - one’s (usually male, if on display) genitalia, facial hair etc, or in giving birth while claiming to be a man. Because at the moment there seems to be an element of “having one’s cake and eating it” in how transgenderism is expressed: it’s not a mental illness, but young people need PBs to prevent suicide; it’s so profoundly triggering to be reminded of one’s birth sex that we need to change language, but transmen give birth and transwomen use their penises to have sex with lesbians; (male, in particular) children need to be transitioned earlier so they have a chance of passing better, but it’s transphobic to expect someone to “pass”, and so on and so on…