Ideas for spreading the word to others - What would it take for you to say : the trans movement isn't what I thought it was?

[Leafstamp]

Some amazing advice and suggestions here for speaking to friends and family.

elizamondegreen.substack.com/p/its-time-to-break-the-awkward-silence?msclkid=a1d855e5a6c311ec99198214e0692b31&s=r

I wonder if any TRA lurkers might also pop by to answer the question in the thread title....

What does a 'gender abolitionist' believe and how can that be reconciled with the position that gender is important enough to change how a person is recognised in law, policy, society, etc?

People have done whole essays and videos on her anti-trans comments..

Perhaps you could summarise? Why should posters believe you if you can't articulate your point?

and sticking them in female competition is really stupid..as seen with Mack Beggs.

No one here believes that some women should be able to take substances in sport that give them an unfair advantage which would be banned for anyone else.

Do you understand what the issues actually ARE? That harm will come to women and it will be hard to identify formally because stats will be misleading - are just two of the issues.
Nothing about the sky or anything philosophical. Real harm.

It's quite telling how patronising and sexist these posts come across as. Silly little women and our concerns.

Re "chestfeeding'" to be polite to transmasculine people. Why is breastfeeding an offensive or triggering term? It is factual. When male people are diagnosed with breast cancer (which is rarer than in women, but it happens), it is called breast cancer, it is not called chest cancer - in fact chest cancer would probably imply something very different and be the purview of a different medical specialty.

Why are words which describe factual and observable reality being made taboo?

People don't care about women's rights, and they think women shouldn't be talking about them either. My daughter and son in law, both nearly 30 and not especially woke, hardly speak to me now because I raised some of the issues I had come across on this board and elsewhere. Apparently talking about women's hard fought for rights being eroded made them "uncomfortable". My daughter, who has a university education and a highly paid job in IT thanks to women before her, doesn't want to "engage" because I'm not on her "wavelength". So now I don't talk to anyone about this, except online (and I'm careful to be anonymous).
Older women, mothers, and feminists, are unmentionables as far as many millennials and Gen Z are concerned, and I feel it's up to them now to sort it out or deal with the consequences.

Many thanks to the posters engaging. I do get fed up with slogans and inaccuracies. Like for example Karen White - convicted of 2 sexual assaults in women's prison, not rape. Does that make sexual assault ok? Of course bloody not. But I like accuracy. Exaggeration gets nobody anywhere.

I hope I accept the people in my life that are trans. What does that mean, exactly? Most of the time it doesn't matter if the people I know are male or female. But yes, I notice and I'm sad when people medicalise their lives or when their unhappiness seems to be taken out on themselves. My husband was on another of medication and I think he needed it, but I certainly wasn't pleased that he needed it, I wished he didn't.

“ferretface

Re "chestfeeding'" to be polite to transmasculine people. Why is breastfeeding an offensive or triggering term? It is factual. When male people are diagnosed with breast cancer (which is rarer than in women, but it happens), it is called breast cancer, it is not called chest cancer - in fact chest cancer would probably imply something very different and be the purview of a different medical specialty.

Why are words which describe factual and observable reality being made taboo?“

Absolutely. Read this:
Frontiers | Effective Communication About Pregnancy, Birth, Lactation, Breastfeeding and Newborn Care: The Importance of Sexed Language | Global Women's Health

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full?fbclid=IwAR2LxA0PL7cJ0SbS_Jq9df5jfLbCCwfVz86vd7aYWkeAq23liD_TpfEpuqA

We call breastplates breastplates. Why is this? Because they are mostly (traditionally away) worn my men?

'there's no chemicals that change your phenotypic race'

Hair dye, false tan, and perming lotion have the same effect on your 'phenotypic race' as hormones and surgery do on your 'phenotypic sex.
An entirely cosmetic effect.

@TheLoneNameChanger If trans women are women…
@DrDinosaur But clearly transwomen are NOT women, as they are males.

People who believe TWAW stop making sense very quickly. (It’s just as well TLNC didn’t start with that, prefaced with an "If" though it was, else I might not have read the rest. I always want to ask, "In what way?" Needless to say I have yet to read a coherent proof.) TWAW is the fundamental problem, and makes communication difficult, to say the least.

• What was wrong with what JK Rowling said?

I see - for the umpteenth time - this hasn't been can't be answered.

They do think it's very wrong and terrible what she said, but they realise they can't articulate it in a way that doesn't sound misogynistic.

It's quite striking that these people will never spell it out.

It's the same old story with JKR, when asked what she said, we get the dead cat strategy of going on about supposed anti-Semitism, racism etc. Basically to convict her on the basis of the sheer number of allegations.

Someone once directed my to a 1 hour video critiquing her essay (I haven't got the time for something like that), but it was clear that they quickly diverted to generalised transphobia from other sources and then made tenuous claims that JKR supported those sorts of people and arguments.

SparklingConsequences : 'Of course everyone has a gender identity.'

No, sorry, SparklingConsequences, they really do not. There is no such thing as gender identity.

‘If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dysphoria.’
– Professor Alex Byrne, see What is Gender Identity?

Or, perhaps, you can change our minds by telling us of someone who has 'found a way of detecting its presence', and letting us know what this way is?

To be clear about this: Byrne argues that you are mistaken. Me, too; I am not accusing you of being a liar, rather that you are in error in your claim. I know this seems crazy to you: how could you be mistaken about something that is so obvious as well as so important to you? To you, I understand, it is almost impossible to credit that anyone could sincerely deny what you think about this. But I do deny it, and as far as I can tell, I do so in full knowledge of why you make the mistake you do.

It is hard for you. I know. Nevertheless, Just try, SparklingConsequences. Try reading Byrne's piece with an open mind; try to understand what he says, asking yourself as you go along, 'Why should I believe anything this person says?' Be serious. It is not so very difficult, truth told. What is difficult is to maintain the requisite open mind on something like this. But try. Truth is important.

This thread is about changing minds. Remember Oliver Cromwell to the Kirk: ''I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

[As to what might change my mind about this? Easy. Tell me a way of detecting the presence of gender identity as a causal agent in dysphoria, as Byrne (quoted above) claims has not yet been done. (Of course, 'Asking people if they have it' will not do: think about guardian angels and so on to see why.) Seriously; if this can be detected in some way, I will believe its existence established. Until then, I maintain there is no such thing. Seems fair?]

@ScrollingLeaves

“What's the difference between Rachel Dolezal and Caitlyn Jenner?

There's no history of trans-race ppl existing, there's no chemicals that change your phenotypic race, “

Many trans women have not changed anything about themselves with chemicals, and have intact penises. But even when they have taken measures to feminize themselves with hormones and surgery they are still males. ( The same with trans men). Just as when Michael Jackson bleached his skin and had cosmetic surgery he was still black.

According to the national transgender survey 2010 of trans and GNC ppl 85% are on or trying to obtain HRT. Just binary trans people would be higher than that..like if you knew the community, you'd know we go to crazy lengths to get HRT as it makes the most difference to our pain, to the extent of buying from the grey market or spending huge amounts of money to go private.

@PrelateChuckles

The issue with self-ID is complex, In the UK its about marriage, dignity and death certs - everything else is EA 2010 (and Acts before). When self-ID gets passed in Scotland, the sky will not fall in and women won't be erased.

Do you understand what the issues actually ARE? That harm will come to women and it will be hard to identify formally because stats will be misleading - are just two of the issues.
Nothing about the sky or anything philosophical. Real harm.

Yes, I do know the issues, thank you..and you're doing the usual thing of not actually naming any harms that scary self-ID would do.

It has no effect on spaces (that's the EA2010)
It has no effect on sports (that's the EA2010 w/ sports authorities)
It has no effect on prisons (that's the EA2010 w/ prison authorities they do their own assessments)

@Ereshkigalangcleg

People have done whole essays and videos on her anti-trans comments..

Perhaps you could summarise? Why should posters believe you if you can't articulate your point?

Why should we have to write an essay for every single person when plenty of them exist already?

In reality, I don't care much for JKR - she's just another billionaire who could be doing amazing things, but is instead hyping up moral panic. It's a statement on inequality in our society that billionaires exist at all.

It has no effect on spaces (that's the EA2010). It has no effect on sports (that's the EA2010 w/ sports authorities).It has no effect on prisons (that's the EA2010 w/ prison authorities they do their own assessments)

Stonewall are campaigning to remove the exemptions in the Equality Act.

Of course everyone has a gender identity.

I don’t have one. I have awareness of the biology of my body and the benefits / limitations it has. I’m aware how it is similar to other women and how it affects the way I’m treated. But none of that is part of my internal sense of self.

I do believe I have a soul though. An inner essence that defines who I am, separate to my body. But I accept that others don’t believe in my soul, because I cannot provide any evidence for it.

@SparklingConsequences JKR is doing amazing things, she personally donated £1m to Ukraine and her charity is doing more, but the media don't want to report on things like that.

Is transition safe? Does transition work?
How is it fair for someone like Lia Thomas to demolish women’s swimming records?

I’ve had quite a bit of success recently with these two questions.

The first one particularly in relation to medical transition of children - the majority of people in my (reasonably left wing) circle of friends balk at children being prescribed strong drugs without a decent evidence base, and recognise that children cannot give informed consent to infertility or reduced sexual function.

The second one really peaked my (usually uninterested) family. We all like sport, and often get together to watch big events. Lia Thomas was was brought up by other people today. The general consensus was that people should live however they choose most of the time, but some things (sports, prisons, hospital wards etc) should be segregated by sex.

@9toenails

SparklingConsequences : 'Of course everyone has a gender identity.'

No, sorry, SparklingConsequences, they really do not. There is no such thing as gender identity.

‘If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dysphoria.’
– Professor Alex Byrne, see What is Gender Identity?

Or, perhaps, you can change our minds by telling us of someone who has 'found a way of detecting its presence', and letting us know what this way is?

To be clear about this: Byrne argues that you are mistaken. Me, too; I am not accusing you of being a liar, rather that you are in error in your claim. I know this seems crazy to you: how could you be mistaken about something that is so obvious as well as so important to you? To you, I understand, it is almost impossible to credit that anyone could sincerely deny what you think about this. But I do deny it, and as far as I can tell, I do so in full knowledge of why you make the mistake you do.

It is hard for you. I know. Nevertheless, Just try, SparklingConsequences. Try reading Byrne's piece with an open mind; try to understand what he says, asking yourself as you go along, 'Why should I believe anything this person says?' Be serious. It is not so very difficult, truth told. What is difficult is to maintain the requisite open mind on something like this. But try. Truth is important.

This thread is about changing minds. Remember Oliver Cromwell to the Kirk: ''I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

[As to what might change my mind about this? Easy. Tell me a way of detecting the presence of gender identity as a causal agent in dysphoria, as Byrne (quoted above) claims has not yet been done. (Of course, 'Asking people if they have it' will not do: think about guardian angels and so on to see why.) Seriously; if this can be detected in some way, I will believe its existence established. Until then, I maintain there is no such thing. Seems fair?]

I, and most transsexuals I know aren't hyperfocussed on the idea of gender identity and I just translate it to refer to my own internal thoughts, opinions etc about my own sexed body..it's the gender dysphoria (in my case, mostly body dysphoria) that is the pain that leads me to change my sex (phenotypic, morphological etc). Given the evidence between cis and trans brains, it's likely a neurological difference..here's a relatively recent lit review that no one ever reads despite it being pretty easy reading.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6235900/

“SparklingConsequences

ScrollingLeaves
“What's the difference between Rachel Dolezal and Caitlyn Jenner?

There's no history of trans-race ppl existing, there's no chemicals that change your phenotypic race, “

I had replied:
“Many trans women have not changed anything about themselves with chemicals, and have intact penises. But even when they have taken measures to feminize themselves with hormones and surgery they are still males. ( The same with trans men). Just as when Michael Jackson bleached his skin and had cosmetic surgery he was still black.”

Then SparklingConsequences replied

“According to the national transgender survey 2010 of trans and GNC ppl 85% are on or trying to obtain HRT. Just binary trans people would be higher than that..like if you knew the community, you'd know we go to crazy lengths to get HRT as it makes the most difference to our pain, to the extent of buying from the grey market or spending huge amounts of money to go private.“

@SparklingConsequences

My information had been from the following:

This is from Fair Play for Women

fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

How many transgender people medically transition?
In 2011, GIRES estimated that only 20% of the UK transgender population were likely to seek medical treatment for their condition at some stage. Based on a UK trans prevalence of 1% and assuming a 50:50 split of males and females that means there are 200,000 male-born transgender people in the UK will no body modifications whatsoever. Of the 50,000 trans-identifying males that do seek medical treatment most of these would be expected to be undergoing hormone treatment and/or breast implants. Only a very small proportion of this 20% will have genital reconstruction surgery.“

So, if this is correct, there are roughly 200,000 male born transgender people with no body modifications whatsoever. And of the roughly 50,000 remaining male born trans gender people who do take hormones and have breast implant surgery, only 1000 have had genital reconstruction surgery,