Ideas for spreading the word to others - What would it take for you to say : the trans movement isn't what I thought it was?

[Leafstamp]

Some amazing advice and suggestions here for speaking to friends and family.

elizamondegreen.substack.com/p/its-time-to-break-the-awkward-silence?msclkid=a1d855e5a6c311ec99198214e0692b31&s=r

I wonder if any TRA lurkers might also pop by to answer the question in the thread title....

The problem is I have TRA friends and they simply don’t believe the things I tell them. Apparently it’s made up right wing propaganda. So the karen white prison rape? Didn’t happen. The worries about child transition by therapists at the Tavistock? Not true. They’re doctors, they know what they’re doing. They wouldn’t transition children unless the best science was behind it! The WIi spa story - made up to demonise trans people. Unfortunately for some people they have to discover these things themselves. Every time I try to tell them about my concerns they reply that they just aren’t real. One of my friends did say something quite interesting though… she said she would find it very difficult if the things I said were true and it would be hard for her to deal with. So she is in extreme denial.

WeeBison I had the same experience with a work colleague (gay man). I would not have started the conversation but he had called the women in the room "cis" so I took him aside afterwards and asked him not to call me that as I found it offensive. He was apologetic. But a few weeks later, we had a huge hour long debate and he was exactly the same as your friends. He had an excuse for everything... men get raped in prison too, older gay people might have wanted to transition if they'd been given the chance, a friend who wished they had had puberty blockers, doctors at Tavistock should be trusted, identities should be affirmed, important to say "cis", etc etc etc. I actually came away shell shocked.

On the other hand, caught up with an old friend a few weeks ago (also gay man) and he was totally 100% GC and very up to date with everything that's going on.

One of my friends did say something quite interesting though… she said she would find it very difficult if the things I said were true and it would be hard for her to deal with. So she is in extreme denial.

This is why they get so angry when they are forced to admit things are true. The pp above is entitled to their views, but they simply think trans people's identity rights are more important than women's rights. That's not the kind of person it's worth trying to persuade, it's like a religious belief. The people in denial are the ones who can see the problems but choose to pretend they aren't real. The la la la I can't hear you.

@WeeBisom

The problem is I have TRA friends and they simply don’t believe the things I tell them. Apparently it’s made up right wing propaganda. So the karen white prison rape? Didn’t happen. The worries about child transition by therapists at the Tavistock? Not true. They’re doctors, they know what they’re doing. They wouldn’t transition children unless the best science was behind it! The WIi spa story - made up to demonise trans people. Unfortunately for some people they have to discover these things themselves. Every time I try to tell them about my concerns they reply that they just aren’t real. One of my friends did say something quite interesting though… she said she would find it very difficult if the things I said were true and it would be hard for her to deal with. So she is in extreme denial.

There’s a case in the US being publicised now - where a girl was suffering bullying at school - cut to her announcing that she was male, crushed by school/classmates/classmates parents (say your mum hit you, run away, tell mum if she doesn’t agree social services wi take you away…). The poor mum did ‘everything right’ for this kid to try to make her happy.

The child was bullied and depressed. She ended up committing suicide. This will open a massive can of worms - and it looks very much like the school was terrified of their reputation and losing funding, and this girl was just a number/$ to them.

Show those twits this story - how many of these is acceptable before the accept that there are some seriously dodgy practices carried out by people who are supposedly there to protect kids.

Crushed = coached

I dont think people care much about womens rights.
I find people more responsive if i tackle it from a safeguarding children point of view - particularly from a potentially trans childs rights. So why dont they get evidenced based medicine, can they consent to infertility when adult women struggle to get sterilised, is it ok adults giving them secret advice online they cant share with parents etc.

I dont think people care much about womens rights.

You're right.

@TheLoneNameChanger

Ok. I think what we have established here is that the "ideas for spreading the word" are maybe less "conversation starters" and more "things that will mean totally different things to GC and non GC people".

Anyway, thank you for this experience and good night.

I am genuinely interested in how 'non GC people' see this line up.

See, one of these is a middle aged man who decided to join a girls college team. Can you tell which one of the line up it is? And why?

I live in the back of beyond, its not at all ‘woke’ here, and don’t actually know any believers in gender ideology personally. I have been raising the issue with friends and family for ages. Five years ago people thought I had a slightly weird obsession, and thought I was exaggerating, as the things I was talking about couldn’t possibly be true. Now they raise it with me, and are as concerned as I am.
Please keep talking everyone, the more the consequences of gender ideology are understood by everyone, the sooner the nonsense will be rolled back.

TheLoneNameChanger
Why are we deferring to the gender identity claims of male rapists and serial killers?

Because you can't make basic human rights conditional on being "nice". If trans women are women, then shitty trans women have to be women too. It's the same logic that says taking passports away from convicted criminals is shit. Fundamental parts of someone's identity needs to be allowed to remain consistent no matter what.

But clearly transwomen are NOT women, as they are males. It is a courtesy to refer to them with female pronouns, not a human right. People who behave badly forfeit any right to courtesy.

@Popuptent

WeeBison I had the same experience with a work colleague (gay man). I would not have started the conversation but he had called the women in the room "cis" so I took him aside afterwards and asked him not to call me that as I found it offensive. He was apologetic. But a few weeks later, we had a huge hour long debate and he was exactly the same as your friends. He had an excuse for everything... men get raped in prison too, older gay people might have wanted to transition if they'd been given the chance, a friend who wished they had had puberty blockers, doctors at Tavistock should be trusted, identities should be affirmed, important to say "cis", etc etc etc. I actually came away shell shocked.

On the other hand, caught up with an old friend a few weeks ago (also gay man) and he was totally 100% GC and very up to date with everything that's going on.

Unfortunately, the trans lobbyists very astutely attached themselves to LGB a few years ago, and have therefore benefitted from the legitimacy of the LGB community.

Therefore many people believe this to be a 'gay rights issue', which of course it absolutely is't. But I think some people in the LGB community feel an affinity with the T, and therefore are defensive about it. They want to stand up for their fellow oppressed community members etc.

Also, for many casual observers who haven't looked past the rainbow lanyard to the steaming pile of shit underneath, they may feel that to speak out or question this is 'being mean' because again it's a 'gay' thing and therefore straight people shouldn't be allowed to have a say. Which again is nonsense.

@sourdoughismyreligion

Because you can't make basic human rights conditional on being "nice". If trans women are women, then shitty trans women have to be women too. It's the same logic that says taking passports away from convicted criminals is shit. Fundamental parts of someone's identity needs to be allowed to remain consistent no matter what.

Which human right are you referring to?

These are our basic human rights according to the Human Rights Act.

Article 2: Right to life
Article 3: Freedom from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment
Article 4: Freedom from slavery and forced labour
Article 5: Right to liberty and security
Article 6: Right to a fair trial
Article 7: No punishment without law
Article 8: Respect for your private and family life, home and correspondence
Article 9: Freedom of thought, belief and religion
Article 10: Freedom of expression
Article 11: Freedom of assembly and association
Article 12: Right to marry and start a family
Article 14: Protection from discrimination in respect of these rights and freedoms
Protocol 1, Article 1: Right to peaceful enjoyment of your property
Protocol 1, Article 2: Right to education
Protocol 1, Article 3: Right to participate in free elections

I do not see in this list a right to be referred to by pronouns that are not consistent with your sex.

Hi there @sourdoughismyreligion, it falls within Art 8. There's a lot more to the Convention rights than looking at the titles, especially Art 8.

Because you can't make basic human rights conditional on being "nice". If trans women are women, then shitty trans women have to be women too

None of these males are women, relative virtue or badness has no bearing on it and I don't see it as a basic human right to be treated as something you can never be. Sex isn't an identity.

Roseglen84 Indeed yes. He actually said that my arguments were the same as those used against gay people 30 years ago. He said the T had always been with the LGB.

it's a 'gay' thing and therefore straight people shouldn't be allowed to have a say. I had a feeling about this during our discussion but then realised it was female socialisation and that the likes of Eddie Izzard would never have such qualms!

Older gay friend (late 50s) totally different scenario. We grew up together and know we are not bigots. We know the difference between the gay clubs and transvestite clubs because we sampled them both back in the day.

"Article 8: Respect for your private and family life | Equality and Human Rights Commission" www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-8-respect-your-private-and-family-life

I did think this part in particular was interesting-

'The courts have interpreted the concept of ‘private life’ very broadly. It covers things like your right to determine your sexual orientation, your lifestyle, and the way you look and dress. It also includes your right to control who sees and touches your body. For example, this means that public authorities cannot do things like leave you undressed in a busy ward, or take a blood sample without your permission.'

Thinking about that in the context of the six words amendment or the conversations about mixed changing areas or mixed sex hospital accommodation - I've seen plenty of statements from anti woman posters that women have no right to control who sees or touches their body.

And no, Article 8 doesn't address pronouns. It might come under 'develop your personal identity' but that doesn't mean others can be held to compelled speech under that aim.

For me in the past (and a lot of people who I have the conversation with now), I genuinely believed that every transwoman had, or intended to have, the full penis inversion/vaginoplasty/gender reassignment surgery (not sure what exactly it’s called).

I used to be like “oh let them get on with life, where’s the harm to me?”.

Once I realised that the intention for surgery was absolutely not the case I started joining the dots, did a bit more reading up, became aware of self ID, the Karen White case, etc, and here I am.

Yes, sorry @Waitwhat23, you're right, I thought that @sourdoughismyreligion was referring to the post made by @TheLoneNameChanger about transgender prisoners' rights.

Good post btw @TheLoneNameChanger

*Does anyone abuse self-id policies?

Probably. Shitty humans beings will abuse most things. That's not a reason to not have them exist - like - the place women are most likely to be assaulted is a public park. But I'd not want parks closed entirely because those spaces are being abused*

In the case of, for example, prisons where self id is demonstrably being abused, the vulnerable women (80% of Scottish female prisoners have experienced a head injury as a result of previous domestic violence as an illustrator) who have been incarcerated have no choice but to be in that space and are at the mercy of the policies made, which in this case put the validation of transwomen (many of whom have been convicted of violent sexual offences against women) above women's safety. This was made clear during the recent MOJ judicial review.

Mentioning parks is whataboutery and I fail to see how self ID would be relevant in that context (unless it was a women's park - but those aren't allowed to exist). Self ID is currently leading to women being harmed in prisons.

I'd like to see a world where people were accepted as their chosen gender 90% of the time with some sensitive and compassionate and nuanced conversations about the 10% when this is challenging but right now the whole subject has become so aggressively policed I think that's impossible.

I'm not being goady but that is what we DID have, in a fuzzy sort of way (some people's lines being maybe 80% of situations, others' 95%, sort of thing).

We accepted TW as "honorary women " to be polite and understanding, with the belief that these were people who desperately wanted to be the opposite sex but weren't literally women. The 10% where they were not treated as literal women was in women's spaces, prisons, shortlists, sports teams etc. And now they are demanding that 10% which is detrimental to women.

I'd like to see a world where people were accepted as their chosen gender 90% of the time

Why? Should people be accepted as their chosen age?

@Leafstamp

Some questions posed in the blog:

• Does everybody have a gender identity?
• What are kids being taught about gender id in school?
• Why did this all seem to have come out of nowhere?
• Is transition safe? Does transition work?
• What's going on with so many kids identifying as trans out of the blue?
• Why are the new euphemisms for 'female'—’bleeder,’ ‘uterus-haver,’ ‘menstruator’—so degrading to women?
• Why are trans demands so lopsided, with much demanded of women and very little demanded of men?
• Why do ideologically-noncompliant women take so much more heat from trans activists than violent men?
• Why are we deferring to the gender identity claims of male rapists and serial killers?
• Why are women’s movements being co-opted?
• Does anyone abuse self-id policies?
• What’s the difference between a ‘transwoman’ and a man who says he’s a woman?
• How is it fair for someone like Lia Thomas to demolish women’s swimming records?
• What's the difference between Rachel Dolezal and Caitlyn Jenner?
• Why does gender id come up all the time, when trans activism doesn’t really have anything to do with [name your pet progressive issue?
• What was wrong with what JK Rowling said?
• Does gender id belong at work?
• Isn't it all kind of sexist and regressive?
• Why is it so hard to talk about any of this?

I wonder if any TRA lurkers might also pop by to answer the question in the thread title....

The assumption is that there is one trans community or that a 'movement' exists at all. Generally people know very little about us, particularly GCs. It's bizarre. I'm a transsexual, I know other trans people, often I argue with them.

Does everybody have a gender identity?

Do people have an internal sense of their sexed self. Do they have opinions and thoughts about their sexed body. Of course everyone has a gender identity.

What are kids being taught about gender id in school?

Haven't a clue. They should be taught that LGBTQ ppl exist and that fine - perhaps some history?

Why did this all seem to have come out of nowhere?

It didn't. It's mostly media moral panic - 600 articles in the print media in 2020 and it's gotten far worse..over 0.5% of the population, it's utterly insane. More people come out as trans, but that's not exactly surprising - we see it with every societal progression

Is transition safe? Does transition work?

Kidding me? It's been life-changing..and possibly life-saving. If I'd remained in the closet, I'd at least be in the same horrible mess that I was before transitioning..and that was bad.

What's going on with so many kids identifying as trans out of the blue?

There's a lot of kids coming out as non-binary. Is there a increase in kids actually transitioning? It's difficult to tell - referrals to GICs tell us very little when the number of kids actually having a medical intervention (i.e. PBs) is so low.

Why are the new euphemisms for 'female'—’bleeder,’ ‘uterus-haver,’ ‘menstruator’—so degrading to women?

Defining people by the functions of their body is dehumanising. There's easy solutions for the whole 'inclusive language' thing (i.e. "woman or anyone with a cervix", "man or anyone with a prostate") which I've frequently suggested, but then get shouted at anyway because you don't want us to exist.

Why are trans demands so lopsided, with much demanded of women and very little demanded of men?

Because trans women are demonised and trans men are infantilised (and ignored) - the issues are the same. Trying to raise trans masc voices is incredibly frustrating and there's still people who don't believe that trans men exist, despite a rich history.

Why do ideologically-noncompliant women take so much more heat from trans activists than violent men?

I spend most of the my time arguing with cis, patriarchal men mostly..online it not uncommon at all for it to be pro-trans women (cis and trans) arguing with anti-trans men. They are some of the most sadistic of the anti-trans activists..with exception to some like PP.

IRL it's completely different. People are accepting and there's a lot of love.

Why are we deferring to the gender identity claims of male rapists and serial killers?

There's lots of cis women who are paedophiles (guardian estimated 60K in 2009), do they become unwomen because they are terrible people? If hitler was gay should I call him straight because of his genocidal tendencies? Terrible people exist in all groups

Why are women’s movements being co-opted?

They're not

Does anyone abuse self-id policies?

The issue with self-ID is complex, In the UK its about marriage, dignity and death certs - everything else is EA 2010 (and Acts before). When self-ID gets passed in Scotland, the sky will not fall in and women won't be erased.

What’s the difference between a ‘transwoman’ and a man who says he’s a woman?

Binary trans women are extremely likely to be in transition (like of the ?hundreds? I know, I know one who can't use HRT because it makes her ill (and it's incredibly upsetting for her). If a person makes a declarative statement "I am an X" then whatever, but I'd expect them to use facilities of their natal sex (like, assuming it's someone who is not transitioning, then they don't have the PC of gender reassignment anyway) and to understand that a lot of people are not going to agree with them.

How is it fair for someone like Lia Thomas to demolish women’s swimming records?

That's up to the governing authorities...and all the utter hideousness that is directed at her should be directed at the NCAA. If it's fair and evidenced then trans women should accept exclusion in sports, but trans men and trans women who have not been thru a male puberty..and yes, there are trans men who do well..and sticking them in female competition is really stupid..as seen with Mack Beggs.

What's the difference between Rachel Dolezal and Caitlyn Jenner?

There's no history of trans-race ppl existing, there's no chemicals that change your phenotypic race, trans-racial people are not 0.5% of the population, there's no history of research into trans-racial vs cis-racial ppl etc.

Jenner is a terrible human being tho - she's one of those awful trans people who I spoke about above.

Why does gender id come up all the time, when trans activism doesn’t really have anything to do with menopause care / completed suicide etc

..because it gets rammed down my throat online by people whose only focus is on my existence. IRL it's much different.

What was wrong with what JK Rowling said?

Really? As one of my work colleagues said the other day "I heard JK Rowling was kicking off again grimacing

People have done whole essays and videos on her anti-trans comments..do I believe that she's one of those of you who would stick us in camps if they could..no.

Does gender id belong at work?

Wot? I'm trans at work..what do you think, I take my tits off before I go to work? Do people want to gender me correctly? Of course, the vast majority of people are decent

Isn't it all kind of sexist and regressive?

I'm a gender abolitionist ffs

Why is it so hard to talk about any of this?

It's all you talk about. It's incredibly tiresome..like this whole subforum and the ones in diverged from are / were full of trans moral panic. Sometimes I will try to talk to the not-sadistic GCs and post up pictures of my cats and whatnot..it very rarely works, but I have had a couple of nice convos out of many hundreds.

“What's the difference between Rachel Dolezal and Caitlyn Jenner?

There's no history of trans-race ppl existing, there's no chemicals that change your phenotypic race, “

Many trans women have not changed anything about themselves with chemicals, and have intact penises. But even when they have taken measures to feminize themselves with hormones and surgery they are still males. ( The same with trans men). Just as when Michael Jackson bleached his skin and had cosmetic surgery he was still black.

Do people have an internal sense of their sexed self. Do they have opinions and thoughts about their sexed body. Of course everyone has a gender identity.

That's really interesting Sparkling - you talk about 'sex' as in biology, but can you try and explain what that has to do with gender? My thoughts about my body are directly informed by what my body is like. I thought gender was separate from bodies?

It's all you talk about.

Do you believe this to be true? Everyone who posts on here, you think this is all we talk about?
Or do you think that perhaps a subsection of a forum about sex and gender might usually contain posts relating to sex and gender, but that doesn't reflect the importance of that topic to each individual person posting on here? It's certainly not true for me. 'trans' topics probably constitute about 1% of what I talk about, or less.

Sex and gender, probably a lot more, as it informs a lot of one's worldview when you're on the oppressed end of it.

What would help is honesty.

What was wrong with what JK Rowling said?

Really? As one of my work colleagues said the other day "I heard JK Rowling was kicking off again grimacing

People have done whole essays and videos on her anti-trans comments..do I believe that she's one of those of you who would stick us in camps if they could..no.

I don't understand what you are saying here.
Can you answer the question by quoting what she has said that you find problematic?

The issue with self-ID is complex, In the UK its about marriage, dignity and death certs - everything else is EA 2010 (and Acts before). When self-ID gets passed in Scotland, the sky will not fall in and women won't be erased.

Do you understand what the issues actually ARE? That harm will come to women and it will be hard to identify formally because stats will be misleading - are just two of the issues.
Nothing about the sky or anything philosophical. Real harm.