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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ideas for spreading the word to others - What would it take for you to say : the trans movement isn't what I thought it was?

143 replies

Leafstamp · 18/03/2022 14:00

Some amazing advice and suggestions here for speaking to friends and family.

elizamondegreen.substack.com/p/its-time-to-break-the-awkward-silence?msclkid=a1d855e5a6c311ec99198214e0692b31&s=r

I wonder if any TRA lurkers might also pop by to answer the question in the thread title....

OP posts:
Leafstamp · 18/03/2022 14:02

Some questions posed in the blog:

  • Does everybody have a gender identity?
  • What are kids being taught about gender id in school?
  • Why did this all seem to have come out of nowhere?
  • Is transition safe? Does transition work?
  • What's going on with so many kids identifying as trans out of the blue?
  • Why are the new euphemisms for 'female'—’bleeder,’ ‘uterus-haver,’ ‘menstruator’—so degrading to women?
  • Why are trans demands so lopsided, with much demanded of women and very little demanded of men?
  • Why do ideologically-noncompliant women take so much more heat from trans activists than violent men?
  • Why are we deferring to the gender identity claims of male rapists and serial killers?
  • Why are women’s movements being co-opted?
  • Does anyone abuse self-id policies?
  • What’s the difference between a ‘transwoman’ and a man who says he’s a woman?
  • How is it fair for someone like Lia Thomas to demolish women’s swimming records?
  • What's the difference between Rachel Dolezal and Caitlyn Jenner?
  • Why does gender id come up all the time, when trans activism doesn’t really have anything to do with [name your pet progressive issue?
  • What was wrong with what JK Rowling said?
  • Does gender id belong at work?
  • Isn't it all kind of sexist and regressive?
  • Why is it so hard to talk about any of this?
OP posts:
KittenKong · 18/03/2022 14:05

The hospital rape story just beggars belief. No one can read that and not feel like crying. The rapist was protected by the hospital and the police obviously went along (so didn’t believe the victim).

nepeta · 18/03/2022 15:40

Those ideas are fantastic, if you get someone to listen long enough. Unfortunately, we need lots of very visible cases where trans rights are taking away traditional women's rights before many will even listen, because right now thinking of these questions is viewed as bigotry. The 'no debate' mantra on Twitter comes to mind.

IcakethereforeIam · 18/03/2022 18:26

I think we have to speak up, if they aren't challenged by default they become mainstream. It's bloody hard and frightening though, and potentially 'dangerous', particularly for women.

IvyTwines · 18/03/2022 18:37

"Why, if you believe social media played a big role in promoting Trump and Brexit, and you believe pro-ana sites were rightly closed down because they encouraged vulnerable teenagers into dangerous behaviours, do you not also apply the same critical thinking to the role of social media when it comes to this phenomenon, which has gone from nothing 10 years ago to large numbers of girls in every middle class classroom now?"

IcakethereforeIam · 18/03/2022 18:51

Get 'would starmer fuck a transwoman' trending. In fact this should be a follow up question to anyone who says twaw.

fishonabicycle · 19/03/2022 15:09

I've just finished reading Trans, Helen Joyce. Really interesting and expressed the feelings I have about women's rights being eroded. A very valid book. I totally agree with people being allowed to live without fear and prejudice, whoever they are, but this has to include women.

BootsAndRoots · 19/03/2022 15:43

Most people support rights for transsexuals, and don't know that "trans" can and does mean something very different, the rights organisations very slyly changed it from gender dismophia to self identification, and most people don't realise this.

People have a stereotype in their heads when they think of trans, and most would be unaware that organisations like Stonewall say that you shouldn't assume a man's gender if he is bearded and wearing a suit.

TheLoneNameChanger · 19/03/2022 16:29

Ok. I don't normally post here, but I think you wanted responses.

  • Does everybody have a gender identity?

I don't think so. I certainly don't. But then I probably experience things and have a strong sense of identity about stuff that doesn't matter to others - everyone is different. I also suspect that sometimes if you're in a majority you might not experience an identity because it's all around you - like a fish doesn't have a sense of water. It's like I definitely would have said I had no sense of national identity as a kid until moved to live in a very different culture as a teen at which point I suddenly realised with a painful bang that I definitely had an English identity. And I found it so frustrating when I came back to England to visit and my friends there insisted they didn't feel English at all.

  • Why did this all seem to have come out of nowhere?

I don't think it has. I knew trans people at university 25 years ago. A friend of mine there had a trans parent who transitioned in the 1980s. It's more common now because it's more accessible and talked about but humans have been trying to figure out what gender is and how gender roles work forever.

  • Is transition safe? Does transition work?

Statistically, yes. Anecdotally, I know a number of people who have transitioned and they have all been vastly happier afterwards. Obviously there are some sad stories of people who aren't happy as a result of transition but the same is true of all surgical procedures. Statistically, nothing has a 100% success rate with no side effects. If you banned any elective procedure that did, you'd lose everything and as the happy recipient of breast reduction surgery and complex dental surgery I'm very glad that such surgeries are available!

  • What's going on with so many kids identifying as trans out of the blue?

I think it's a mix of it being an option in a way it wasn't when I was younger and also kids being kids and wanting to figure out their identity. In my experience of watching my kids' friends, a lot of them do just use it as an identity, like goth or punk used to be, and don't want to go down a long medical route and just want to change their name and maybe dress differently and I think that's mostly healthy and positive. I kind of wish I'd had the freedom to explore my identity when I was young.

  • Why are the new euphemisms for 'female'—’bleeder,’ ‘uterus-haver,’ ‘menstruator’—so degrading to women?

I think a lot of those words are awful and would like to see them being used less often and more of a focus on language being accessible and dignified and not just trans inclusive. This stuff has to be for everyone. Having said that, I think offering inclusive terms as an option (so, if a midwife is meeting with a trans masc parent, knowing 'chestfeeding' is a term that might be welcomed, or maybe have some tailored literature for them) is a positive.

  • Why are trans demands so lopsided, with much demanded of women and very little demanded of men?

I'm not sure that's true.

  • Why do ideologically-noncompliant women take so much more heat from trans activists than violent men?

How many violent men are active in the public sphere loudly demanding their right to punch trans people in the face? I think gender critical women are very active and loud in the public sphere and so get a loud reaction in the public sphere. Violent men get reported to the police. When the attacks are raised in campaigns (so, for example if discussing assault on trans women in prison) they seem to promptly get absorbed into arguments with gender critical women.

  • Why are we deferring to the gender identity claims of male rapists and serial killers?

Because you can't make basic human rights conditional on being "nice". If trans women are women, then shitty trans women have to be women too. It's the same logic that says taking passports away from convicted criminals is shit. Fundamental parts of someone's identity needs to be allowed to remain consistent no matter what.

  • Why are women’s movements being co-opted?

I have no idea what this is referring to.

  • Does anyone abuse self-id policies?

Probably. Shitty humans beings will abuse most things. That's not a reason to not have them exist - like - the place women are most likely to be assaulted is a public park. But I'd not want parks closed entirely because those spaces are being abused.

  • What’s the difference between a ‘transwoman’ and a man who says he’s a woman?

That's a gigantic stupid rabbit hole of nit picking semantics waiting to happen.

  • How is it fair for someone like Lia Thomas to demolish women’s swimming records?

I think women's sport is a really complicated and difficult subject and I think that I'd like a lot more discussion amongst endocrinologists and sports scientists and a serious conversation about what the point of sport even is. I don't think that conversation is happening now. I also think we need to accept there isn't a one size fits all solution as different sports will have different needs. And a fair and equitable solution would probably annoy both trans rights types and gender critical types.

  • What's the difference between Rachel Dolezal and Caitlyn Jenner?

I actually am more sympathetic to Rachel Dolezal than a lot of people. I think she's a vulnerable and fragile woman who's identity problems sprang from her abusive family who then unmasked her in order to take the identity she's constructed as an escape away from her. I think it's shit that she's been turned into a debate point instead of treated with compassion as a victim of abuse. I am not African American, tho, so probably shouldn't argue this point too far. Am also not white if that's relevant.

  • Why does gender id come up all the time, when trans activism doesn’t really have anything to do with [name your pet progressive issue?

I don't know that is always does. I often manage to work on progressive issues without discussing trans people. Maybe if you're looking for it all the time?

  • What was wrong with what JK Rowling said?

Do you mean the dodgy anti Semitic stuff about goblins or the weird racist Nagini plotline or the odd "love is all powerful and good except gay love which creates wizard Hitler" plotline or the awful foreign names which make no sense or the cringey cultural appropriation for the foreign magical schools or the strange epilogue where happiness = marrying the first person you ever fancied or the creepiness of Snape's fixation with Lilly? Or just the transphobia?

Would take an essay. There are lots online if you Google, which go through her article point by point.

  • Does gender id belong at work?

Well, yes. Because gender expression happens all the time anyway. Unless you're suggesting that workplaces shouldn't allow make up or heels or skirts and we should all wear gender neutral boiler suits? Which was the case at one job of mine and I kind of liked it.

  • Isn't it all kind of sexist and regressive?

Our society? Yes. But it is what it is and trans people have to live in it. In an entirely gender neutral society I imagine the trans experience would be wildly different.

  • Why is it so hard to talk about any of this?

In my experience because if I express any reservations, one person will appear out of nowhere to say "SEE! TRANS IS AWFUL! GENDER AFFIRMING SURGERY SHOULD BE BANNED! PENIS = RAPE! REVERSE THE GRC LAWS! I CAN ALWAYS TELL A NATAL WOMAN BY THE LOOK IN HER EYES! CIS IS A SLUR! TRANS WOMEN ARE PREDATORS" and someone else jumps out to scream "IF YOU THINK A TRANS POWER LIFTER HAS AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE THEN YOU ARE A BIGOT. GENITAL PREFERENCES ARE TRANSPHOBIC!" and we end up in this shitty situation.

I'd like to see a world where people were accepted as their chosen gender 90% of the time with some sensitive and compassionate and nuanced conversations about the 10% when this is challenging but right now the whole subject has become so aggressively policed I think that's impossible.

AlisonDonut · 19/03/2022 16:36

In my experience because if I express any reservations, one person will appear out of nowhere to say "SEE! TRANS IS AWFUL! GENDER AFFIRMING SURGERY SHOULD BE BANNED! PENIS = RAPE! REVERSE THE GRC LAWS! I CAN ALWAYS TELL A NATAL WOMAN BY THE LOOK IN HER EYES! CIS IS A SLUR! TRANS WOMEN ARE PREDATORS" and someone else jumps out to scream "IF YOU THINK A TRANS POWER LIFTER HAS AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE THEN YOU ARE A BIGOT. GENITAL PREFERENCES ARE TRANSPHOBIC!" and we end up in this shitty situation.

Alexa, show me DARVO in action.

sourdoughismyreligion · 19/03/2022 16:45

Because you can't make basic human rights conditional on being "nice". If trans women are women, then shitty trans women have to be women too. It's the same logic that says taking passports away from convicted criminals is shit. Fundamental parts of someone's identity needs to be allowed to remain consistent no matter what.

Which human right are you referring to?

These are our basic human rights according to the Human Rights Act.

Article 2: Right to life
Article 3: Freedom from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment
Article 4: Freedom from slavery and forced labour
Article 5: Right to liberty and security
Article 6: Right to a fair trial
Article 7: No punishment without law
Article 8: Respect for your private and family life, home and correspondence
Article 9: Freedom of thought, belief and religion
Article 10: Freedom of expression
Article 11: Freedom of assembly and association
Article 12: Right to marry and start a family
Article 14: Protection from discrimination in respect of these rights and freedoms
Protocol 1, Article 1: Right to peaceful enjoyment of your property
Protocol 1, Article 2: Right to education
Protocol 1, Article 3: Right to participate in free elections

I do not see in this list a right to be referred to by pronouns that are not consistent with your sex.

lovelyweathertoday · 19/03/2022 16:48

How is it fair for someone like Lia Thomas to demolish women’s swimming records?

I think women's sport is a really complicated and difficult subject

Only if you think men who say they are women should be included, women only = pretty straightforward

and I think that I'd like a lot more discussion amongst endocrinologists and sports scientists

Happy to see that happen, although it's not going to make men physically comparable to women

and a serious conversation about what the point of sport even is.

You are welcome to start this debate, but it's got nothing to do with women's sport right now.

I don't think that conversation is happening now. I also think we need to accept there isn't a one size fits all solution as different sports will have different needs. And a fair and equitable solution would probably annoy both trans rights types and gender critical types.

Surely a fair and equitable solution would please everyone who is acting in good faith.

I note that you completely side-stepped the actual question. Presumably because it's obviously not fair for Thomas to be racing against women.

cariadlet · 19/03/2022 16:51

I had an interesting conversation when I stopped by an Extinction Rebellion stall today. I said I'd take some stickers because I could put them up when I did my women's rights stickering.

The 2 women on the stall asked what stickering I was doing so I said it was about the trans issue. They replied that it was a difficult issue so I said that I used to think so but it wasn't really. Then I told them about a few things including men in women's prisons, the increase in girls identifying as trans and the case of the woman raped in hospital by a trans identifying male.

They were pretty shocked and one said that she would read Trans to find out more. They were both in their 60s (I think their age is relevant as they're unlikely to have been dripfed trans propaganda via work or social media) and were both clearly aware that there was a debate but didn't know any details.

I think people like that who haven't been indoctrinated into trans ideology are pretty easy to peak.

VelvetChairGirl · 19/03/2022 16:55

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AlisonDonut · 19/03/2022 16:57

One of these girls is a middle aged man. Can you work out which one it is?

This is a girls COLLEGE team.

Ideas for spreading the word to others - What would it take for you to say : the trans movement isn't what I thought it was?
ScrollingLeaves · 19/03/2022 17:21

IvyTwines

"Why, if you believe social media played a big role in promoting Trump and Brexit, and you believe pro-ana sites were rightly closed down because they encouraged vulnerable teenagers into dangerous behaviours, do you not also apply the same critical thinking to the role of social media when it comes to this phenomenon, which has gone from nothing 10 years ago to large numbers of girls in every middle class classroom now?"

I agree.

And,

When you look at how Russians are being told an invasion is a ‘liberation’ do you not see that it really matters when language is being manipulated to hide the truth?

PrelateChuckles · 19/03/2022 17:25

I agree that most people still think transgender means having long-standing gender dysphoria, and I am sympathetic to an extent with such people. However, I don't think you need to construct a thing called "gender" to explain it, necessarily.

It's the self-id, "I am literally the sex I say I am" that is illogical and problematic and it can be hard in conversation to pinpoint that and everything that flows from it.

BootsAndRoots · 19/03/2022 19:20

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samsalmon · 19/03/2022 20:53

@TheLoneNameChanger
Wow, quite the clutch of bigoted themes identified in Harry Potter there….anti-semitism, racism, homophobia, paedophilia and of course it goes without saying, transphobia…

Someone should tell Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson et al to distance themselves from the film franchise, I’m sure they would be rushing to do that if they only realised….🙄

TheLoneNameChanger · 19/03/2022 20:59

@BootsAndRoots - what? My post? I mean, yes. I'm not gender critical. I'm generally pro trans rights with some reservations and only stopped by because the OP said they hoped someone of a trans sympathetic nature would respond to their bullet points so I don't exactly know what you are accusing me of?

TheLoneNameChanger · 19/03/2022 21:05

Ok. I think what we have established here is that the "ideas for spreading the word" are maybe less "conversation starters" and more "things that will mean totally different things to GC and non GC people". Hmm

Anyway, thank you for this experience and good night.

samsalmon · 19/03/2022 21:36

@TheLoneNameChanger I was actually interested in your thoughts and arguments until you got to that bit and then you went totally off-piste, no idea why and there was a strange disconnect between your other responses and that particular one (the JKR comments).

I agree with your point that there are shitty people in all social groups and the majority should not be held accountable for that, as a principle. Unfortunately though, to allow for male-bodied people to enter female spaces, that does mean ignoring a basic tenet of our safeguarding principles, what do you feel about that? I personally don’t think our safeguarding principles, which exist for a reason and have emerged from terrible situations in the past, should be compromised for anyone, it doesn’t matter who they are. We are all vulnerable if they are compromised.

I also get your point about wishing for more freedom in gender expression, we pretty much all feel the same here. It’s the labelling that’s problematic. I grew up in a time when there was much greater freedom of expression and there was a lot less angst about it, we seem to have gone backwards.

Your point about not feeling English until you were abroad - sense of nationality is not innate though is it, as gender is claimed to be. If you’d been born in France, you would have just felt like a French person abroad instead.

Re Rachel Dolezal, I also have sympathy now that I understand her background more. However, what she did was beyond the pale, totally unacceptable, no matter what the reasons. It doesn’t make sense, she can’t explain it and neither can anyone else, without seeing it through the prism of her trauma. I’m not sure if she has sought therapy but if she has, I doubt anyone would find that odd or a means of ‘conversion therapy’. You didn’t address the original question, what is the difference between Rachel Dolezal and Caitlyn Jenner?

Anyway, thanks for attempting to answer the questions and engage. It’s important.

samsalmon · 19/03/2022 22:01

@TheLoneNameChanger apologies you did answer the Rachel Dolezal question I think.

What I’d like to ask then is, if someone else tried to do what she did without her troubled background as an explanation, how would you feel about it? I’m not white either and anyone is welcome to admire, respect, even identify with and participate in aspects of my cultural background, they would be welcome if acting in good faith and with respect to the rest of the community. They could convert into a religion, no problem. But to say that they are actually Black or Asian or whatever? No, because that would be a fiction. I’d be interested to hear what you think about it. Because for the life of me, I cannot understand the difference between feeling like a woman when you’re not, as opposed to feeling of a different race when you’re not.

SeaRabbit · 20/03/2022 07:21

The PP about JKR says: There are lots online if you Google, which go through her article point by point.

Could you please post a link to what you consider to be the best, as I've heard this before but never managed to find anything that does this, when I've googled.

I would mention that I'm not expecting you will, but I am willing to be surprised. Maybe that's what you think is out there, as that's what everyone says, but nobody has actually written such an analysis, and nobody has really looked, because they just believe what everyone else says?

ThePennyJustDropped · 20/03/2022 08:22

I think @TheLoneNameChanger has been very helpful engaging in this in a calm and respectful way. I strongly disagree on some opinions but the whole point is we need to have debate where both sides of the picture are represented and which don't end in mud slinging before any actual conversation has happened.

Every GC person who is concerned with erosion of women's rights should be grateful for any moderate pro trans view and not attempt to shut it down by making them feel like they won't bother engaging next time. Because otherwise the TRA voices will only get louder and issues won't get resolved because the majority of people power is those in the middle who aren't quite sure. People who are torn and feel sympathy for both sides. People who need to see calm, fair debate and then figure out what they'd like to see in society for women's rights and trans rights.