Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 3

[Whatamesssss]

Thread one, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4498167-Maya-Forstater-hearing-starts-Monday

Thread two, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4505825-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-2?pg=1

MP was educated by the QI report, he's basically saying. He understood how this is like the gay rights debate and he understood what Washington people were objecting to.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

MP is advocating the balance of probabilities so women should never be apprehensive about sexual predation because it's such a small number of men?

Am I understanding MP and the position of CDG correctly?

I don't care that MP is floundering and dragging confusion into his responses to BC's questions.

I cleave to my interpretation of MP on thread 2 yesterday any I retract any respect for him as an individual on this MRA showing.

Mmm he's having a much worse time of it now! The reasonableness mask he was attempting has well and truly slipped...

MP is so confused isn't he? His experience is that of reality but he's been semi-convinced by a TRA argument that Maya's Women's rights stance is an attack on trans people. I still don't think he believes it. He just knows he better be on the TRA side of the argument or else!

MP was wanting to put parameters around MF's expression from his MRA perspective?

MP's dragging in his thought experiment in order to understand his colleagues in Washington. Even though he says, "It's not correct" or accurate and leads to incorrect inferences?

MP thinks things shouldn't be discussed because some people don't understand the issues? Although they never will understand the issue if they can't be discussed?

I've grasped that correctly?

MRA through to the core of his bone marrow.

Again, we see how the involvement of QI turned this into a shitstorm. I want MF to win and for other organisations and institutions to see this.

MP reveals that he carried out a thought experiment in which he replaced transgender with LGB, and then it was clear to him why people thought Maya's tweets were so offensive.

BC painstakingly pointing out the difference and how misleading an analogy that is.

MP just admitted that this was essentially a misunderstanding in Washington about the nature of MF's beliefs.

BC: we are going to need Monday morning for evidence.

“this scenario is basically because of a misunderstanding of MF’s beliefs?
Yes.”
What a place to stop. The guy is a genius.

.... and it's the adverts

And a bigger boat.

BC - how does the QI report help us at all?
MP - it made clear in my mind what the controversy was, the debate & passions, I could take to her about the parameters of her workplace behaviour
BC - you & LE in the vague report even removed possible guidance around parameters? .....taken out in the final version?
BC.....you reply 'wondering if section of recommendations could be hived off'....[reads from emails]
BC - continues reading from emails - MP thought QI was 'compelling'. At some point MP's emails substituted word 'gay' for 'trans'. BC says this made it 'meaningless'.
MP - I didn't fully understand what all the fuss was in Washington.'....
'Gay' is for me more of what the people in Washington were objecting to.
BC - incorrect inference that it was more an attack on trans people than a defence of women's rights - did you understand?
MP - didn’t understand perfectly but I understood it broadly

About to break for 10 mins - they'll go into Monday morning, says BC

@nauticant

BC: we are going to need Monday morning for evidence.

BC: we are going to need Monday morning for evidence evisceration.

FTFY

@nauticant

BC: we are going to need Monday morning for evidence.

Lmao I'll fucking say

@Awkwardy

It's like watching Kasparov playing chess against a bucket of potato peelings

I hope Ben puts that in his LinkedIn bio.

@Awkwardy

It's like watching Kasparov playing chess against a bucket of potato peelings

hope Ben puts that in his LinkedIn bio.

This is utterly excruciating. Excel pope on twitter has summed it up best. Dying with embarrassment for these complete morons.

twitter.com/excelpope/status/1504775930081914884?s=21

Thanks to everyone for transcribing, it's so much easier to follow on here than on Twitter.
Please don't anyone remind tabby that she has to go out

@tabbycatstripy

And a bigger boat.

@Pluvia

MP reveals that he carried out a thought experiment in which he replaced transgender with LGB, and then it was clear to him why people thought Maya's tweets were so offensive.

BC painstakingly pointing out the difference and how misleading an analogy that is.

Does anybody recall a comedy sketch in which someone was presenting as Lynn Faulds Wood being angry and asking what the interviewee would think would happen if somebody gave a chainsaw to a baby in a playpen instead of a toy?

The perfectly reasonable interviewee said: No, because nobody would do that.

LFW in comedy sketch: Well, we did.

Disclaimer: that was a comedy sketch. Not a thought experiment one prominent intellectual in a leading think tank with a global reputation conducted in order to understand his equivalently intellectual, thoughtful, and analytical colleagues in Washington.

I might do a bit more...

@Signalbox

MP is so confused isn't he? His experience is that of reality but he's been semi-convinced by a TRA argument that Maya's Women's rights stance is an attack on trans people. I still don't think he believes it. He just knows he better be on the TRA side of the argument or else!

I actually think what we've seen from Mark Plant is a fairly common male perspective and probably is quite close to what he thinks. We saw yesterday that he isn't actually that bothered about Maya wanting to distinguish between sex and gender etc, would've been happy enough for her to go on talking had it not become a problem for him, and would ideally have preferred the anti-Maya faction in the company to just get over themselves. At the very least, he wasn't bothered enough about it to want to go to any trouble at all.

But then got actively angry when the issue was framed in terms of the threat to women from male violence, Schrodingers Rapist etc. Basically his problem starts once it becomes in any way personal for him.

I am finding it almost, and sometimes actually, unbearable to listen to. I keep having to mute it.

@Rightsraptor

About how many men actually are sex offenders (as opposed to those who get convicted for same) - I have a dim memory of some research that found that 20% of the men they asked would commit sexual assault on a woman if they knew they could definitely get away with it. Anyone else remember this, or got the source?

Possibly this - a third of male university students would rape if they would get away with it. www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/a-third-of-male-university-students-say-they-would-rape-a-woman-if-there-no-were-no-consequences-9978052.html

I was inclined to say "even if 1% of men are sex offenders, that's a huge number" but a third seems depressingly more likely. Which is overwhelming. And men like MP cannot see it, will not it. Doesn't suit them to see it.