Why can’t we let the words go and start separating by DNA

[Intheshit1]

Why don’t we separate spaces, sport, prison, domestic abuse, report crime stats etc by what DNA we have. Sure there will be some people that do not fit XX and XY but we can deal with those people on a case by case basis and they can join a group that suits them the best. I assume this is what happens generally anyway.

I could request to see an XX doctor for a smear test. And I would not be able to compete with XY people at Olympic swimming. Crime stats should be reported based on DNA. Hospital wards could be XX or XY. Side effects of medicines would need to be reported by what DNA a person has. It would be made very clear that people with XY cannot give birth and don’t need tampons and that XX people don’t need a prostate exam.

Why don’t we just go down this route. It seems that the gender/sex argument is never going to be won. But… you can’t argue with DNA. Surely.

I wonder how certain oppressive regimes work out who the women and girls are?

I just do not get the threat. I'm happy to have transwomen in female bathrooms. Men who want to come in and be violent, will do it regardless of rules, norms etc.

What would you do with those people who are XXY, XXYY etc?

@Intheshit1

Oh I completely agree Fairislefandango but I’m just thinking of a way we can win this argument. Every avenue is blocked. We get shouted down. Told we are wrong. Trend on Twitter for all the wrong reasons. Get called awful names.

How do we win this debate. I think the answer must lay in science.

Well we certainly don't win by backing down. We win by using the word woman only for women. Consistently, every single time we talk about women we use women. And we use men for men.

Maybe the answer is to have 3 spaces/sports categories etc: Biological women, biological men, and people that don’t give a shit.

People that “don’t understand the threat” can go in the third place, tick the third box etc.

but how do you determine who these 'men' are (meaning transwomen)? Are you just wanting female bathrooms only to be available to sufficiently fem people? If a 'man' (transwoman) passes as female, then that's ok? If a woman is butch, then that's not ok?
Maybe this is just a sensitive topic as a very tall, not very fem, XX woman who has some genuine concerns that this could lead to women not letting me into bathrooms.

I don’t get how this nonsense trumps my rights and beliefs.

My mother in law is religious. I’m not. Would it be ok for me to send her death threats, erase her church and start changing the law so she has to begin educating herself on atheists? Start deleting the word “Christian” because it’s not inclusive. Of course not. This is no different in my opinion. I believe sex matters. Why is that wrong.

"There is no such thing as man or woman. Gender and/or sex have been invented. But also, scientifically, there are loads of sexes."

Oooh, that's interesting! are there loads of sexes in eg, cows, too? It must make life very complicated for farmers.

Maybe this is just a sensitive topic as a very tall, not very fem, XX woman who has some genuine concerns that this could lead to women not letting me into bathrooms.
I seriously doubt that you have had any problems. Humans (or at least women) are very good at noticing sex. However, it is far more likely you would encounter problems nowadays when gender norms are becoming so fixed. NOW, women are being "mistaken" as non-binary or trans if they are not female presenting enough. This is a huge step backwards.

I know that tone can be lost online.

I used to think I knew I could say what a woman was. But every scientific arguement I thought could be advanced to advocate the definition of women is wrong, or misleading, or outdated. This has been aggressively parroted at me hundreds of times. It has worn me down too much and I don't know what there is to say anymore.

Well done those of you still trying to fight for the idea we exist.

Sorry - just realised you are making the same point, @ZoeQ90 !

I am a genealogist. (professionally). Part of what I do involves DNA testing, helping people find matches or make sense of tests. Y DNA is handed down from father to son and doesn't mutate much along the way so is really useful for tracking your male line back. Similarly, mitrochondrial DNA is handed from mother to daughter.

However you feel, however you present, whatever clothes you wear and however much surgery you have to alter your body, if you were born with XX chromosomes you cannot take a Y DNA test. And similarly, no amount of surgery or hormones is going to allow someone who was born with an XY chromosome to take a mitrochondrial DNA test.

Genealogists are a very gender critical bunch as a whole because we work with this XX and XY every day.

Public toilets are never going to be policed but it's not true that rapists will "just barge in" anyway. They are not perfect but they are MUCH safer for women than gender neutral aka mixed sex facilities. And I don't see why we should be forced to forego safety and dignity because a small subset of males don't like being male. We are half the population. Our needs are more important.

There are two sexes, both of which are need to procreate, that’s really all there is to it (with the caveat that yes there is a minuscule percentage of the population who could be classed as intersex). All this gender identity politics are just the reflection of a decadent and narcissistic society and I’m sure it will all blow over soon amongst the younger population at least. The middle aged incel types who are using gender as a stick to beat women with will be seen as the lunatic fringe.

but how do you determine who these 'men' are (meaning transwomen)

They know if they are men or not. Men should use men's facilities or request additional ones if they prefer.

Or are you thinking that men will ignore women's requests for single-sex spaces therefore we shouldn't be allowed to have them? I don't think we should be ignoring the law that allows single-sex spaces just because some men object.

I think Cake is just teasing us. They know they're talking bollocks :)

[quote ZoeQ90]Also, remember this is not only about excluding transwomen from female space, it would also force transmen to use female facilities. These are transmen, i.e., likely XX and therefore would be in your bathrooms and female-only spaces.
static01.nyt.com/images/2020/01/30/t-magazine/oakImage-1580405768393/oakImage-1580405768393-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale[/quote]
I am not interested in clicking on your link.

Transmen are female. They are entitled to use female spaces, and when they use male ones they inconvenience themselves (male public toilets do not have sanitary bins and have fewer cubicles and many more urinals). Also, if you think transwomen are in danger in men's toilets, then surely female transitioners (being female!) are at equal or greater risk there.

Some female transitioners do wish to use the men's spaces though, and I am not their keeper. They pose little physical risk to men, and if men find it undignified to use urinals or get undressed in the presence of female transitioners, it is their job to make it known. I can't speak for men about what they're comfortable with.

Oh I completely agree Fairislefandango but I’m just thinking of a way we can win this argument. Every avenue is blocked. We get shouted down. Told we are wrong. Trend on Twitter for all the wrong reasons. Get called awful names.

How do we win this debate. I think the answer must lay in science.

I think the answer lies in giving this whole debate as much sunlight as possible. Not just in the cesspit of Twitter where the TRAs lurk, but in the mainstream press and in conversations between real people.

People are made to feel that they are in a sinful minority for not believing that TWAW. The sooner they (and political parties) realise that no, most people don't actually believe TW are literally women (even if they think it might sometimes be kind to treat them as though they are), the more the tide will turn. I think there are still a lot of people who honestly don't realise that the mantra TWAW is meant literally.

So muscular, bearded, deep-voiced, testosterone-filled trans men, who in some cases had been raised as boys from early childhood, would be competing in women's sports, entering women-only spaces, giving you a smear test when you asked for a female doctor, answering women-only helplines etc? And any man under 6 foot could wander into the women's loos and claim he had XX chromosomes?