How will we ever get these disgraceful Tories out, if Starmer keeps spouting this nonsense?

[HoliHormonalTigerlilly]

I mean,aside from wondering why on earth he's visiting soldiers in Estonia and banging on about TWAW, I am seriously wondering how we will ever get rid of these heartless Tories?

Labour seem intent on alienating half the population 😢

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-women-are-women-says-keir-starmer-in-call-for-legal-reform-6rk9tpxsl

I don't think Starmer in any way believes TWAW. His focus right now is bringing the party under his control and purging it of electorally toxic views - as was seen over threatening to withdraw the whip from MPs who signed the anti-NATO statement. I think he has calculated that this issue is one he can concede to the loony bits of the party, because he judges it to be a fringe issue. But he has very seriously miscalculated how badly this will end up damaging Labour, and has now personally tarnished himself by stepping in and making the statements that he has. He will find it very hard to get away from those statements at a general election.

Tony Blair, however, gets it - of course!

I get for some women this is the only issue in politics that matters. The Tories could have make rape legal in the manifesto (in fairness they pretty much have) and they would still win your vote if they were against self ID . For me there's a bigger picture, what would do more harm to women overall, and they Tories have consistently, throughout past and recent history shown how little they care for women. Rape convictions is just one thing. Pushing women into poverty and food bank use another. Cutting access to legal aid another. Doing pretty much nothing to stop father financially walking away from their children another and actually making it harder for mothers to get child support. I could go on and on. The Tories are no friend to women. But, like I said, I get for some self ID (a Tory policy) is the only issue.

@MangyInseam

I don't get the question. Yes, the Tories initially were positive to the idea of self-id. As were many women including some on the thread now.

They have backed off, and also allow their MPs to speak their mind on the issue. Some have been pretty active in speaking against it.

Labour and the other left parties OTOH have embraced it, say they will implement it, say things like you shouldn't say only a woman has a cervix, silence and even expel MPs and members who do not agree, and told voters that if they disagreed, they did not want their votes.

What are people not seeing here?

Yes and I appreciate your summary.

I think if self ID (A TORY POLICY) comes in itll be overturned at somepoint , once its seen to not work and disadvantage women

kendodd

I read your posts, I have a lot of respect for you as a poster on here and I do absolutely take in your opinions on things and think about my attitudes to certain things

But do you honestly and truly believe what you just said, are there no caveats at all?

@PrinceYakimov

I don't think Starmer in any way believes TWAW. His focus right now is bringing the party under his control and purging it of electorally toxic views - as was seen over threatening to withdraw the whip from MPs who signed the anti-NATO statement. I think he has calculated that this issue is one he can concede to the loony bits of the party, because he judges it to be a fringe issue. But he has very seriously miscalculated how badly this will end up damaging Labour, and has now personally tarnished himself by stepping in and making the statements that he has. He will find it very hard to get away from those statements at a general election.

Tony Blair, however, gets it - of course!

I agree with most of this. I think Starmer has to go carefully in phases and what he said actually is carefully worded. He's recognised the need for single sex spaces and women's concerns. He's also made reference to the legal basis for people with a GRC - that legally they are women.

In no way has he said he supports self ID so I'm not sure he has let this one go. He's dealing with other things first I think/hope

But Ken how can you possibly know how and to what extent all the things you are listing are affecting women if the definition of women is - adult human female plus any man who says they feel like one

It’s impossible to get accurate data if you can’t establish what is meant by women

Without accurate data you can’t create policies that meet the needs of women

In no way has he said he supports self ID so I'm not sure he has let this one go. He's dealing with other things first I think/hope

This to me just reads as still fence sitting and again women, we will get to your issues after the revolution now be a babe and make the tea.

We are important, just as important as men, just for once our issues are such that they need dealing with right now, not later when its convenient.
I require answers that centre me, we've centred men for the last eon, now it is womens turn.

I did have a big ranty bit then that I've taken out, because I dont want to get banned from pretty much the only site that even let's us discuss this stuff.

In Scotland, the blasphemy law hadn't been used for nearly 200 years, yet it took that long to repeal it.

In recent years we've ended up with a modern version of the blasphemy law across the UK via hate speech and the non-crime hate incident bullshit that is being used to harass people because it prioritises the completely subjective word of a person with zero evidence. Everyone knows it's bad legislation but political parties don't want to address it because they don't want to be seen as 'getting rid of hate crime laws'.

Same thing with the GRA. Falsifying factual information on birth certificates and other forms of identification is being used to promote the narrative that people have literally changed their sex and therefore are entitled to single-sex spaces and services that are not supposed to include them. This is bad legislation and will continue to affect women's legal ability to completely exclude males, but again no political party will explicitly look at addressing this because repealing the GRA and implementing a better one will be framed very negatively.

Once legislation is embedded, no matter how damaging it is, it is very difficult to remove it. You can tinker around the edges, but the problem will still remain.

I'm astounded that some people are under the naive illusion that once self-id is established in law, it will be easily and quickly removed when women (especially those with the least ability to advocate for themselves) are being hurt by it. Rapists and pedophiles are already being housed in women's prisons NOW and politicians are not in a hurry to address this. You think it will be a piece of piss to repeal self-id?

Using the current state of poor provision around women's rights and protections to justify letting through even more shitty legislation that will affect women's rights and protections is not the convincing argument that you think it is. Guilt tripping and name calling only works on some women, not all of us.

That's a great post NonnyMouse.

I just don't get how anyone can say the CP and LP are comparable on this.

About the most positive thing I could say if I wanted to be optimistic is that the LP leadership knows they have no chance of being elected, so maybe they don't think they will ever need to take action on self-id.

But that's a supposition and frankly if they are taking that view, they are as good as saying they don't intend to offer a credible opposition and are happy not to be in power. They are happy for Tory policies to go forward when push comes to shove.

@NonnyMouse1337

In Scotland, the blasphemy law hadn't been used for nearly 200 years, yet it took that long to repeal it.

In recent years we've ended up with a modern version of the blasphemy law across the UK via hate speech and the non-crime hate incident bullshit that is being used to harass people because it prioritises the completely subjective word of a person with zero evidence. Everyone knows it's bad legislation but political parties don't want to address it because they don't want to be seen as 'getting rid of hate crime laws'.

Same thing with the GRA. Falsifying factual information on birth certificates and other forms of identification is being used to promote the narrative that people have literally changed their sex and therefore are entitled to single-sex spaces and services that are not supposed to include them. This is bad legislation and will continue to affect women's legal ability to completely exclude males, but again no political party will explicitly look at addressing this because repealing the GRA and implementing a better one will be framed very negatively.

Once legislation is embedded, no matter how damaging it is, it is very difficult to remove it. You can tinker around the edges, but the problem will still remain.

I'm astounded that some people are under the naive illusion that once self-id is established in law, it will be easily and quickly removed when women (especially those with the least ability to advocate for themselves) are being hurt by it. Rapists and pedophiles are already being housed in women's prisons NOW and politicians are not in a hurry to address this. You think it will be a piece of piss to repeal self-id?

Using the current state of poor provision around women's rights and protections to justify letting through even more shitty legislation that will affect women's rights and protections is not the convincing argument that you think it is. Guilt tripping and name calling only works on some women, not all of us.

Very well said

All of it but especially the bold part

Way too many ‘things’ in my post 🤔

I also think it's a bit naive to think that problems with rape convictions are down to the Tories. That is a much bigger problem which I suspect has to do with changes in the way evidence is considered more generally, related to technology. It's also a problem in countries outside of the UK with similar kinds of systems.

@AdamRyan In no way has he said he supports self ID

He has made a public statement of support for self ID;
twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1227878854183792642

Self ID is the second demand;
twitter.com/LGBTLabour/status/1227654076453859331