How will we ever get these disgraceful Tories out, if Starmer keeps spouting this nonsense?

[HoliHormonalTigerlilly]

I mean,aside from wondering why on earth he's visiting soldiers in Estonia and banging on about TWAW, I am seriously wondering how we will ever get rid of these heartless Tories?

Labour seem intent on alienating half the population 😢

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-women-are-women-says-keir-starmer-in-call-for-legal-reform-6rk9tpxsl

@Kendodd

How come the Tories seem to get a completely free pass on this? SELF ID is THEIR policy! I haven't seen any Tory asked by the press what a women is. The most vocal MP speaking against self ID I've seen is Rosie Duffeild , a LABOUR MP. The Tories just voted down making misogyny a hate crime. Rape convictions have collapsed under Tory rule, they might as well have made it legal.

Lots of Tory MPs have spoken out, many of them women. Kemi Badenoch spoke very well just the other week. They just get less attention in the press and on social media.

The reason everyone hears about Rosie Duffield because she's a lone voice not toeing the party line and because her own party attacks her so much for her opinions.

Self ID was a Tory policy, one I suspect most of them regret now. The difference between them and Labour is they appear to allow their MPs to speak as they find on the issue so you get a spectrum of opinions in the Tories ranging from Crispin Blunt, a fully paid up TRA through to GC siding MPs who will work with women's groups.

I wasn't happy about misogyny being a hate crime in the current climate. I just think it's something that would be weaponised against women.

I agree rape convictions collapsing is very bad as is the general sate of policing under the Tories and also of concern is the draconian anti protest legislation they have been pushing.

We're between a rock and hard place on many things at the moment as women voters.

@Artichokeleaves

Tories are no friends to women either.

Hmm.

Do I want the party that's at least fence sitting on women's rights and shows some basic awareness that there's issues with all this?

Or the parties sworn to gallop women's rights away at high speed the second they get into power?

Gosh what a dilemma.

I’ve been hoping for years now that Labour would split and we'd get the sane middle left socialists forming a new and realistic party. I honestly don't think there's any left now, they've all gone.

I’ve been hoping the same, Artichoke. I think a lot of us have. Same about the Green Party. I’ve spoiled my ballot paper in the past, but now I am more scared of Labour getting in and signing away women’s few remaining rights.

I’d rather have a Torygovernment. Never thought that would happen.

@Kendodd

How come the Tories seem to get a completely free pass on this? SELF ID is THEIR policy! I haven't seen any Tory asked by the press what a women is. The most vocal MP speaking against self ID I've seen is Rosie Duffeild , a LABOUR MP. The Tories just voted down making misogyny a hate crime. Rape convictions have collapsed under Tory rule, they might as well have made it legal.

Exactly! The conservatives know what went are and shaft us at every available opportunity

I don’t care any more, I just won’t vote Labour and that’s that. Nothing matters to me as much as this issue - it’s existential. Why would I ever vote for a party whose leader and many MPs say a man is a woman if he says so?

I will spoil my ballot paper for ever if I have to.

Precisely this. How... just HOW are they so blind to the fact that the vast majority of human beings know full well what a woman is, and that countless voters would gratefully scramble to be able to vote for a party whose leader and members are willing to admit that they do too?!

Boris is a serial shagger, potentially abusive, presides over a government that has effectively decriminalised rape and puts forward policy to "encourage" women to provide free child and elderly care.
I don't understand how women can bring themselves to overlook all that, just because the Conservatives say "woman = adult human female"
I'm more likely to vote Starmer as his track record as DPP was to actually take action that helped women, regardless of him saying TWAW. I don't think he'll implement self ID. In fact I interpret what he's said as keeping the status quo, which is OK with me.
Not a cat in hells chance I'm voting Tory. I am not a turkey, thank you.

"I don't understand how women can bring themselves to overlook all that, just because the Conservatives say "woman = adult human female" "
Well if you don't understand it maybe the fault is with you, Adam. Consider that.

@AdamRyan

Boris is a serial shagger, potentially abusive, presides over a government that has effectively decriminalised rape and puts forward policy to "encourage" women to provide free child and elderly care. I don't understand how women can bring themselves to overlook all that, just because the Conservatives say "woman = adult human female" I'm more likely to vote Starmer as his track record as DPP was to actually take action that helped women, regardless of him saying TWAW. I don't think he'll implement self ID. In fact I interpret what he's said as keeping the status quo, which is OK with me. Not a cat in hells chance I'm voting Tory. I am not a turkey, thank you.

How can I overlook Boris being a serial shagger?

When the alternative is men in bed with Stonewall, with the likes of Stephen Whittle openly stating that the second Labour or the Greens get into power, self ID will be rolled out and all Stonewall's dreams will come true, and Starmer unable to even name females?

Trust me, I can live with an incompetent shagger. I'll take corrupt, incompetent and useless over actively dangerous to women's rights in a heartbeat.

Starmer is a Tory shill anyway who infiltrated the labour party to make it unelectable. first he targeted all the lefties and kicked them out, then the anti isreal jews, now women.

We really need the Women's Equality Party to sort themselves out and pin their colours to the Gender Critical mast - I suspect they would get a flood of votes and actually achieve their original aim of getting the main political parties to think about women.

@Happygirl79

I think there will be a lot of people abstaining because there's no one worth voting for

dont do that, walk right into the polling station and spoil your vote, write I will not give my vote to any party that doesn't respect womens rights, all over it or something similar to make it clear.

I don't understand how women can bring themselves to overlook all that, just because the Conservatives say "woman = adult human female

Doesn't that just demonstrate how massively important that one statement is to women. You would think, wouldn't you, that women would not sacrifice everything for that one measly statement.

Can't you see how this one statement is fundamental to everything else. Because without it we have no rights. None. They are all gone.

Why would we vote for anyone who can't acknowledge women, in their own class, separate from men, with their own needs and rights.

I'm hoping the SDP have a candidate where I am - sdp.org.uk/policies/transgender-and-biological-sex-based-rights/

@WhereYouLeftIt

"I don't understand how women can bring themselves to overlook all that, just because the Conservatives say "woman = adult human female" " Well if you don't understand it maybe the fault is with you, Adam. Consider that.

🤔

Labour and LDs are likely to have some sort of pact at the next GE (possibly Greens too) so may still get in. The next GE (so I heard this week) is likely to be 2024 given events in Ukraine and the Tories wanting to put some clear water between Partygate and whoever the next leader might be (assuming partygate does for Boris when the investigation is finished).

So local elections this year and maybe next are the chance to get the message across and also ask pertinent questions relating to actual policy (my list includes not just “what is a woman”/“how are you defining lesbian and gay” but “will the new leisure centre have single sex changing rooms as well as sufficient third spaces for mixed sex groups and trans people”, “can a vulnerable person request a carer/ social worker of the same sex?”, “will rape crisis and DV organisations providing single sex refuges/services be able to continue to receive funding?” etc).

Extraordinary.

I had been trying to give him the benefit of the doubt over his “You can’t say that” [Only women have cervixes] in case he meant that it wasn’t respectful/tactful to say that - which I could understand to some extent even though I don’t agree.

This wading in making TWAW as his official stand point is the absolute end once and for all in my opinion.

@WallaceinAnderland

I don't understand how women can bring themselves to overlook all that, just because the Conservatives say "woman = adult human female

Doesn't that just demonstrate how massively important that one statement is to women. You would think, wouldn't you, that women would not sacrifice everything for that one measly statement.

Can't you see how this one statement is fundamental to everything else. Because without it we have no rights. None. They are all gone.

Why would we vote for anyone who can't acknowledge women, in their own class, separate from men, with their own needs and rights.

I've been on this board and GC for a very long time. I'm a bit bored of the arguing over definitions. I'm "woman = adult human female" but I don't think that's a useful starting point for any kind of conversation with people who believe TWAW because it's a logic vs. faith argument. About as productive as a creationist debating evolution with an atheist.

Being able to define women is fundamental to women's rights. But that doesn't mean a party that says "woman = adult human female" supports women.

The Conservative party have nothing to lose and everything to gain by saying "woman = adult human female". They are less likely to alienate their core voter base by saying this, and they know this is a point of difference to the left,where the core voter base is a lot more "woke". And they know for a lot of women, it's a key issue. So they are likely to attract voters, not lose them.

Taking that position doesn't mean that in reality they are going to protect women's rights at all. They can define woman, and then they can exploit us.

It's shocking that there is no way at the moment to vote for a pro women party. Labour have not actually said they will support self ID. Until that happens, to me their actual policies would be better for most women than the Conservatives.

I'm not throwing women (and the more vulnerable in society generally) under the bus because of an ideological difference of opinion.

I might consider spoiling my ballot,but would depend what the centre left parties policies were at election time. I would not vote for a party that had a policy of self ID.

“WallaceinAnderland

I don't understand how women can bring themselves to overlook all that, just because the Conservatives say "woman = adult human female

Doesn't that just demonstrate how massively important that one statement is to women. You would think, wouldn't you, that women would not sacrifice everything for that one measly statement.

Can't you see how this one statement is fundamental to everything else. Because without it we have no rights. None. They are all gone.

Why would we vote for anyone who can't acknowledge women, in their own class, separate from men, with their own needs and rights.“

Given Russia/Putin I now have an extremely militant feeling against non-speak.

But that doesn't mean a party that says "woman = adult human female" supports women.

At this stage all we are asking for is confirmation of what a woman is.

I think it's more pertinent to ask why Starmer refuses to answer that very simple question. Why is me being a woman so problematic for him that he has to go out of his way to avoid stating the obvious. Who is behind this, what is he afraid of.

I don't want to vote for someone who is afraid of his own voice.

Starmer is a Tory shill anyway who infiltrated the labour party to make it unelectable. first he targeted all the lefties and kicked them out, then the anti isreal jews, now women.

Yeah, because the lefties and the anti semitism made Labour electable.

@ashainspace

At least Boris knows what a woman is and for that he has my respect and vote.

Has he been asked? What was his answer?

@Artichokeleaves

Tories are no friends to women either.

Hmm.

Do I want the party that's at least fence sitting on women's rights and shows some basic awareness that there's issues with all this?

Or the parties sworn to gallop women's rights away at high speed the second they get into power?

Gosh what a dilemma.

This is the problem. I loathe Boris Johnson and his cabinet. Absolutely despise them and what their incompetence has done to the country.

But how to vote, when only the Tories are making any attempt to stand in the way of the trans activists’ misogynist and homophobic agenda determined to destroy all women’s rights and safe spaces and denying my right to say that I exist as a category different from a man in a frock?

Lots of Tory MPs have spoken out, many of them women. Kemi Badenoch spoke very well just the other week. They just get less attention in the press and on social media.

Do you ever wonder why that is? It suits the Times, Mail and other rightwing outlets to report extensively on Labour's views. Regardless of the MP's views, it's an automatic vote loser. From both women and trans folk.

They rarely comment on the TRAs in the Conservative party

I will also spoil my ballot paper forever if I have to, after being a lifelong Labour voter. As a pp says, Well Done Keir! Talk about not reading the room - he could have actually picked UP some votes lately with everyone's general discontent with the way things have been handled, but no! no more wishy-washy Keir, the reveal is...... a Keir who's firmly and fully TWAW. He must know this isn't right! He KNOWS it's a complete nonsense! What's going on there fgs? Makes me so cross.

I can't vote Tory either, but my best friend's MP is Jackie Doyle-Price, and I'd consider voting for her as he does, despite his own long history as a Labour supporter, as she is a brave and outspoken supporter of women on this issue.