New statesman article: I once agreed with J.K. Rowling

[KookaburraSits]

Sorry if this has already been posted. It's embarrassingly bad.

www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/03/as-a-victim-of-abuse-i-once-agreed-with-jk-rowling

Highlights of idiocy include:

"It is true that there are no meaningful statistics to suggest transgender women pose a threat to cis women like me. The argument is theoretical — hypothetical even."

"What I did know was that most of the politicians and commentators that I agreed with on every other issue were fighting hard for trans rights. So I understood that I must be missing some piece of the moral puzzle"

"Then I saw how profoundly misdirected her fear was. Because trans women are not the perpetrators but the victims of violence: last year an estimated 375 trans, non-binary or gender non-conforming peoplewere killed across the world."

"They say that sex matters for gender and you cannot call yourself a woman if you haven’t had periods, for example."

Or go and read some other threads. It's like Groundhog Day. We've been discussing this law for years.

I call bullshit all round, how many heterosexual people with XX chromosomes would call themselves "cis"....

Trans rights activists or their supporters. So I think there is your answer.

@EricCartmansMagicalUnderpants

All of these are made up, that's what a social construct is. It doesn't mean that they aren't real or have an effect on the world however.

White people: real
Women: real
Cisgender: made up.

I'm not saying that white people, or female people aren't real haha, I'm saying that the concepts of "race", "gender" and "transness" are social constructs, note that this doesn't stop them being real, i.e. having an effect on the world. But that effect is only due to the weight that society gives them.

Here is the exact part protecting gender reassignment

Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic.

Sex is a protected characteristic.

Two different characteristics. Gender is not sex. Sex is not gender.

Gender being a protected characteristic does not get to override all the other protected characteristics, including sex.

All of these are made up, that's what a social construct is. It doesn't mean that they aren't real or have an effect on the world however.

'Made up'? Are you serious?

[quote AlisonDonut]As far as I know no man has ever gone through the humiliating process of getting a gender recognition certificate and used that to abuse women in a space they could not have entered before. This scenario only exists in the heads of those seeking to discriminate on the basis of gender identity

You might want to make a cup of tea and sit and read through this thread.

You won't of course. It would blow your mind.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread[/quote]
Is there a particular example you can point to please? One in which someone with a GRC did something which which would have been a crime had they not had a GRC.

All of these are made up

I'm not saying that white people, or female people aren't real haha

Make your mind up.

@DomesticatedZombie

All of these are made up, that's what a social construct is. It doesn't mean that they aren't real or have an effect on the world however.

'Made up'? Are you serious?

Yes, haha. I don't think that believing any of those are social constructs (hence 'made up') is controversial in the wider world (amongst those who consider it at all)

@DomesticatedZombie

All of these are made up

I'm not saying that white people, or female people aren't real haha

Make your mind up.

To clarify, I'm not saying that white people, or female people aren't real, I'm saying that the concepts of "race", "gender" and "transness" are made up social constructs, note that this doesn't stop them being real, i.e. having an effect on the world. But that effect is only due to the weight that society gives them.

@EricCartmansMagicalUnderpants

Here is the exact part protecting gender reassignment

Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic.

Sex is a protected characteristic.

Two different characteristics. Gender is not sex. Sex is not gender.

Gender being a protected characteristic does not get to override all the other protected characteristics, including sex.

I'm not claiming it does override the others. Nonetheless, it is a characteristic against which it is, generally, illegal to discriminate.

I would claim that it is not in conflict with the others however.

@AlisonDonut

What is gender reassignment though?

Section 1 here www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7

In non legalese, it refers to people who are trans.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

UK law makes no distinction between sex and gender.

Yes, it does. You've been swallowing too many alternative facts. "Gender" is only defined in the context of sex, but it is not the same, or there would be no way of excluding trans people from opposite sex spaces. There is.

I suppose you're correct in terms of this equality legislation (and maybe other specific pieces regarding discrimination). In general though, I believe that the terms are used interchangeably in most law.

I would definitely defer to a lawyer who studies this area however!

Men not having access to women only spaces is not them being punished.

If anything there needs to be a special trans space specifically for them. That’s the only fair thing.

And women don’t have to allow anyone in a dress who claims to be a woman into our spaces. We deserve to have safe spaces.

If trans women are at risk then it is from men, and that is not for women to solve. That’s for men to solve. Women shouldn’t have to guess and be put at risk just in case some pervert might take advantage of being able to access women spaces.

Trans feelings and need for validation do not trump the actual need for women and girls
To have single sex spaces.

Why not lobby for trans restrooms and trans wings of male prisons? Why do women and girls have to see random dicks in our spaces?

In non legalese, it refers to people who are trans

And what is trans?

I have asked what happens to a male to make him 'trans'. What actual things happen that do not include hair, make up or clothes? How do we know the difference between a man and a trans woman?

suppose you're correct in terms of this equality legislation (and maybe other specific pieces regarding discrimination).

There's no suppose about it. I am correct as were other pp. You were incorrect. Gender is not interchangeable with sex in law. Gender is not even defined in law, only in terms of gender reassignment.

@EricCartmansMagicalUnderpants

making it illegal to deny someone access to a space on the basis of their gender transition.

That's not true. There is provision in the equality act to make provisions for single SEX services. Not illegal at all.

It is illegal to deny someone access to a space on the basis of gender reassignment: a male who has, is in the process of, or proposes to change gender may not e discriminated against by being denied access to spaces that other males have access to, such as the men's toilets. That is the law.

Unfortunately, TRAs have misinterpreted this law as meaning that a male with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment cannot be denied access to places that females with or without the PC of gender reassignment have access to. That is Stonelaw.

Being female isn't a social construct. People would still be able to reproduce if humans had never learned to speak or write reams of turgid pomo bullshit.

@AlisonDonut

trans people don't claim to be trans, they are trans by definition

I am glad you are here as you do seem very knowledgeable.

When a man a male person from birth becomes 'trans', what has happened to them in between being a man and being a transwoman? Please explain any changes without it being clothes, hair or make up related. What has actually changed?

Thank you.

This is a good question. I absolutely believe that gender stereotypes are wrong, women aren't women because they wear makeup or dresses!

We live is a society rife with gender, gendered interactions, gender norms and expectations (sometimes stereotypes), even gendered words!

From what I understand, a transition involves changing the way one interacts with a gendered society (it however doesn't preclude wanting to remove or reduce the importance of gender in society).

I'm sure you'll ask "but in what specific ways?". Because there is no one way to be a woman it's impossible to narrow down an exact path through transition.

For a single specific example (and I clarify that this is not an answer in general), perhaps you could think of the ways you inform society that you are a woman; this might seem trite as "obviously I am a woman", but please think about what makes that obvious, I assume nobody is checking your chromosomes every time you interact with them!

I'm happy to chat more about this in a private message, this thread is getting very hard to mee track of.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

suppose you're correct in terms of this equality legislation (and maybe other specific pieces regarding discrimination).

There's no suppose about it. I am correct as were other pp. You were incorrect. Gender is not interchangeable with sex in law. Gender is not even defined in law, only in terms of gender reassignment.

Agree - gender is not defined in law. I wonder why

I’ve never had anyone who believes in “gender” explain it to me in a way that would make a legal definition is possible. It’s a slippery thing…

a single specific example (and I clarify that this is not an answer in general), perhaps you could think of the ways you inform society that you are a woman; this might seem trite as "obviously I am a woman", but please think about what makes that obvious, I assume nobody is checking your chromosomes every time you interact with them!

I wear jeans, t-shirts, steel toe capped boots, have short hair, use chainsaws, dig trenches and buy plants and shopping.

Everyone knows I'm female due to the way I walk, the way I talk, my hand size, my shoe size, my hips, my tits.

I completely understand why you don't have an answer. Because there is none.

Which is why you have to insult me by pretending that I somehow tell society how I am a woman, when nothing I could ever do could persuade society otherwise.

And do not private message me.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

suppose you're correct in terms of this equality legislation (and maybe other specific pieces regarding discrimination).

There's no suppose about it. I am correct as were other pp. You were incorrect. Gender is not interchangeable with sex in law. Gender is not even defined in law, only in terms of gender reassignment.

I would rather trust the governments website which states "It is important to note that the law in the UK treats the terms sex and gender as interchangeable."

www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21

Sex and gender are terms that are often used interchangeably but they are in fact two different concepts, even though for many people their sex and gender are the same

Two different concepts. From your ONS link.

The UK government defines sex as:
• referring to the biological aspects of an individual as determined by their anatomy, which is produced by their chromosomes, hormones and their interactions
• generally male or female
• something that is assigned at birth
The UK government defines gender as:
• a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth
• where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman

Your own link also includes the UK Gov definition for both sex and gender

Elaine.

Admit it. You've been had. You have no actual argument. Time to pop off and bake a cake?