New statesman article: I once agreed with J.K. Rowling

[KookaburraSits]

Sorry if this has already been posted. It's embarrassingly bad.

www.newstatesman.com/comment/2022/03/as-a-victim-of-abuse-i-once-agreed-with-jk-rowling

Highlights of idiocy include:

"It is true that there are no meaningful statistics to suggest transgender women pose a threat to cis women like me. The argument is theoretical — hypothetical even."

"What I did know was that most of the politicians and commentators that I agreed with on every other issue were fighting hard for trans rights. So I understood that I must be missing some piece of the moral puzzle"

"Then I saw how profoundly misdirected her fear was. Because trans women are not the perpetrators but the victims of violence: last year an estimated 375 trans, non-binary or gender non-conforming peoplewere killed across the world."

"They say that sex matters for gender and you cannot call yourself a woman if you haven’t had periods, for example."

For a single specific example (and I clarify that this is not an answer in general), perhaps you could think of the ways you inform society that you are a woman; this might seem trite as "obviously I am a woman", but please think about what makes that obvious, I assume nobody is checking your chromosomes every time you interact with them!

The vast majority can tell the opposite sex regardless of their clothing, and they have been able to do this for thousands of years. Even the magical thinkers.

One would think you had been dropped on to earth from another planet. You act as though you dont recognise these basic things. But I have no doubt when you're out and about you can tell exactly who is male and who is female really. Just like the majority.

Your style is starting to sound very familiar btw.

“ElaineFuchs

Ereshkigalangcleg
suppose you're correct in terms of this equality legislation (and maybe other specific pieces regarding discrimination).

“There's no suppose about it. I am correct as were other pp. You were incorrect. Gender is not interchangeable with sex in law. Gender is not even defined in law, only in terms of gender reassignment.
I would rather trust the governments website which states "It is important to note that the law in the UK treats the terms sex and gender as interchangeable."
www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21“

I am confused by this because in the link you sent sex and gender are differentiated:

1. Definitions and differences

The UK government defines sex as:

referring to the biological aspects of an individual as determined by their anatomy, which is produced by their chromosomes, hormones and their interactions
generally male or female
something that is assigned at birth
The UK government defines gender as:

a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth
where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman
The World Health Organisation regional office for Europe describes sex as characteristics that are biologically defined, whereas gender is based on socially constructed features. They recognise that there are variations in how people experience gender based upon self-perception and expression, and how they behave.

Here is the exact part protecting gender reassignment

Yes, gender reassignment NOT gender identity which you keep saying. I will repeat it slowly - there is no protected characteristic of gender identity.

@AlisonDonut

a single specific example (and I clarify that this is not an answer in general), perhaps you could think of the ways you inform society that you are a woman; this might seem trite as "obviously I am a woman", but please think about what makes that obvious, I assume nobody is checking your chromosomes every time you interact with them!

I wear jeans, t-shirts, steel toe capped boots, have short hair, use chainsaws, dig trenches and buy plants and shopping.

Everyone knows I'm female due to the way I walk, the way I talk, my hand size, my shoe size, my hips, my tits.

I completely understand why you don't have an answer. Because there is none.

Which is why you have to insult me by pretending that I somehow tell society how I am a woman, when nothing I could ever do could persuade society otherwise.

I'm sorry you didn't find my answer acceptable. I hope this message clears up my thoughts on the matter. I really didn't intend to insult you, I am sorry.

I absolutely wouldn't claim you are any less of a woman because of your attire or activities. It would be absurdly misogynistic to do so.

Likewise, I hope that you wouldn't deny anyone's womanhood because they didn't sway their hips enough or didn't have small enough feet.

In your last paragraph you hit on a really important point. In many ways society is completely hung-up on gender stereotypes, so much so that, like you say, you could never pursuade people otherwise. For some trans people this can be a huge source of pain.

Please, let's work together to break down these stereotypes together.

I would claim that it is not in conflict with the others however.

It clearly is. Which is why you're here trying to pretend otherwise.

@AnneElliott

The UK government defines sex as: • referring to the biological aspects of an individual as determined by their anatomy, which is produced by their chromosomes, hormones and their interactions • generally male or female • something that is assigned at birth The UK government defines gender as: • a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth • where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman

Your own link also includes the UK Gov definition for both sex and gender

It does. I'm not sure what your point is?

The UK government is not the law.

@AlisonDonut

And do not private message me.

Of course I will not private message you since you've told me not to! Thank you for being clear.

Pickle?

Please, let's work together to break down these stereotypes together

I'm only interested in safeguarding women and children. I've gone past the stage of being kind or working together. The time for that was years ago, when women tried to think of solutions and trans activists rejected them. Too late now. Women will continue to fight this with the law. And so far, they are doing a pretty good job of it.

@ScrollingLeaves

“ElaineFuchs

Ereshkigalangcleg
suppose you're correct in terms of this equality legislation (and maybe other specific pieces regarding discrimination).

“There's no suppose about it. I am correct as were other pp. You were incorrect. Gender is not interchangeable with sex in law. Gender is not even defined in law, only in terms of gender reassignment.
I would rather trust the governments website which states "It is important to note that the law in the UK treats the terms sex and gender as interchangeable."
www.ons.gov.uk/economy/environmentalaccounts/articles/whatisthedifferencebetweensexandgender/2019-02-21“

I am confused by this because in the link you sent sex and gender are differentiated:

1. Definitions and differences

The UK government defines sex as:

referring to the biological aspects of an individual as determined by their anatomy, which is produced by their chromosomes, hormones and their interactions
generally male or female
something that is assigned at birth
The UK government defines gender as:

a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth
where an individual may see themselves as a man, a woman, as having no gender, or as having a non-binary gender – where people identify as somewhere on a spectrum between man and woman
The World Health Organisation regional office for Europe describes sex as characteristics that are biologically defined, whereas gender is based on socially constructed features. They recognise that there are variations in how people experience gender based upon self-perception and expression, and how they behave.

I don't know what else to say here really.

You said "Gender is not interchangeable with sex in law." but the government says "It is important to note that the law in the UK treats the terms sex and gender as interchangeable."

I'm not denying that the government might have separate definitions, but the government isn't the law.

A peer-reviewed study showing that the introduction of self-id in any of these countries caused an increase in sexual assault would definitely get me to rethink my views.

When the crimes are recorded as being carried out by the sex the person self identifies and are therefore completely worthless?

According to Bernard Jenkins over 400 women in the UK have been convicted of and incarcerated for the crime of rape, a crime that under UK Law can only be perpetrated by a male, those women are transwomen, biological males id-ing as women and you think that is progress? Or not harmful? Or hypothetical?

In your last paragraph you hit on a really important point. In many ways society is completely hung-up on gender stereotypes, so much so that, like you say, you could never pursuade people otherwise. For some trans people this can be a huge source of pain

Trans people know what sex they are. If it causes them pain, perhaps they need some therapy to deal with it. But the asnwer isn't to pretend they are the opposite. And to have everyone from the actual opposite have to go along with the pretence. That would be total insanity.

@EricCartmansMagicalUnderpants

For a single specific example (and I clarify that this is not an answer in general), perhaps you could think of the ways you inform society that you are a woman; this might seem trite as "obviously I am a woman", but please think about what makes that obvious, I assume nobody is checking your chromosomes every time you interact with them!

The vast majority can tell the opposite sex regardless of their clothing, and they have been able to do this for thousands of years. Even the magical thinkers.

One would think you had been dropped on to earth from another planet. You act as though you dont recognise these basic things. But I have no doubt when you're out and about you can tell exactly who is male and who is female really. Just like the majority.

Your style is starting to sound very familiar btw.

Are you saying that women are defined by being recognised as women? Humans are good, but only about 95% or something. Does that mean that if a trans man passes, then he is a man by your definition?

I'm not claiming that ones gender identity influences the shape of ones face!

I am very curious to know who you think I am!

Women are defined as being adult human females - that is the only definition required

Transmen are still women no matter what surgery they have to present as a facsimile of a man

I am very curious to know who you think I am

I am very curious to find out what has to actually physically happen to a male to transform him into a trans woman. You said yourself that they are not as much a threat as males are so what has happened to make this so?

In your last paragraph you hit on a really important point. In many ways society is completely hung-up on gender stereotypes, so much so that, like you say, you could never pursuade people otherwise. For some trans people this can be a huge source of pain. Please, let's work together to break down these stereotypes together.

First, this is forced teaming and it's not appreciated. The issues dealt with by female people with gender stereotypes are not one and the same as those dealt with by trans people. A number of reoccuring issues for female people have been increased and made worse by the trans political lobby and agendas. Female people need to be able to talk about and deal with their own issues, be open about their own issues, and not have them blurred and lost behind issues experienced by trans people. They are two separate groups with two separate needs, voices, experiences and neither is more important than the other.

Second: it is not the job of female people to salve trans people's pain. Particularly not by subordinating their own needs and providing service to sort out other people's problems, this is the same rampant sexism that has impeded female equality and access for years. And right now issues of equality and access are more severe than they have been in decades, largely because of male people identifying as women.

Third: really the time for 'lets all work together' was about five years ago. From bitter experience of years in the trenches trying to put the brakes on the galloping roll back of women's rights, 'lets all work together' usually translates as 'shut up, step up and do all the work of putting others before yourself.' No. The time for selflessness by women and trust by women - that horse hasn't just bolted, it's died of old age.

Women are being arrested for stating biological fact and raising safeguarding concerns, being raped in prisons by convicted sex offenders, MNetters are posting here because they are rape victims who can't access women's rape crisis support, because they cannot escape dangerously abusive relationships and access women's refuges, (one MNetter was homeless for months), because they're losing accessible toilets at work - 'work together'?

No. At this point the fence mending is going to have to come entirely from those who started this, have inflicted all this harm on female people, and failed to care in the slightest about it. Women do not have the time, capacity or good will left to go fixing anyone else's issues right now.

@AlisonDonut

In your last paragraph you hit on a really important point. In many ways society is completely hung-up on gender stereotypes, so much so that, like you say, you could never pursuade people otherwise. For some trans people this can be a huge source of pain

Trans people know what sex they are. If it causes them pain, perhaps they need some therapy to deal with it. But the asnwer isn't to pretend they are the opposite. And to have everyone from the actual opposite have to go along with the pretence. That would be total insanity.

Science shows us that affirming trans children is actually the best course to keep them from depression and suicide.

I'm not going to claim that you hate children, because you may have good intentions, but I will say that your actions are hurting trans children and trans adults. It's not possible to make a trans kid cis, but it is possible to make a trans kid sad.

The UK government is not the law.

The UK Government makes the Law, are you really that daft?

Likewise, I hope that you wouldn't deny anyone's womanhood because they didn't sway their hips enough or didn't have small enough feet.

No, only if they were male. Swinging your hips doesn't make you a woman. Having larger than female average feet doesn't make you a man. Being male makes you a man. Being female makes you a woman.

Does science really show that?
Please provide links as I have so far not done across any good science on this

I do recall that the suicide statistics showed that transgender children had slightly lower rates than other types of body dysmorphic children

Science shows us that affirming trans children is actually the best course to keep them from depression and suicide.

It shows us nothing of the sort. Stop scaremongering about suicide, it is deeply unethical to do so.

I'm not going to claim that you hate children, because you may have good intentions, but I will say that your actions are hurting trans children and trans adults. It's not possible to make a trans kid cis, but it is possible to make a trans kid sad.

Good grief.

May I suggest you read the thread about the initial response from the Cass Report?

Science shows us that affirming trans children is actually the best course to keep them from depression and suicide.

Fake news. Even if it wasn't the Samaritans advise on not telling people that people being sad can lead to suicide as it then becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. It actually increases the chances so you saying this is the thing that could trigger a suicide. Do you want to kill kids?

You really are ticking all the TRA boxes tonight.

@VestofAbsurdity

The UK government is not the law.

The UK Government makes the Law, are you really that daft?

In the UK, Parliament makes the law, not the government.

We also know that when children were not given the option to be trans , they tended not to commit suicide at any higher rates than they do today

Bluntly ... at a society level there is no reduction in child suicides associated with increasing levels of transgender affirmation