@Pennox
Why arent we allowed ro talk about AGP given its a recognised psychological condition?
Do take care - persistently questioning the
"Mumsnet moderation principles for discussions around gender identity and sex" on this particular subject is a sure-fire way to get banned
www.mumsnet.com/i/trans-rights-moderation-policy
You will notice that the URL refers to "trans rights"?
Included in the "Moderation Principles" is, basically, a "trans right" to censor conversations about AGP:
Will you consider deleting posts that associate transgender people with autogynephila (AGP)?
This is something we'd look at on a case by case basis, though we'll definitely delete posts which generalise.
Presumably the "anti-generalisation rule" would not apply if someone posted, "All people with AGP are kind, thoughtful and highly intelligent - no sarcasm intended!"
Which reminds me. There are a several "unwritten rules" that can get posts deleted and, if resulting in three "strikes" within a 6 week rolling period, can get you banned, eg. the phrase, "stunning and brave" is verboten.
One of the most controversial aspects of the "anti-generalisation ban" wrt AGP is that people with AGP who wished to inform Mumsnetters about the general nature of AGP have been banned for doing so.
"We do not want Mumsnet to be a place that feels inherently hostile to any group, be that trans people, gender-critical feminists or anyone else (except perhaps trolls)."
Unfortunately, Mumsnet is "inherently hostile" to anyone, including "trans people" who have AGP, if they wish to discuss AGP. Despite the "anti-generalisation" rule, there is also censorship of discussions about specific individuals, even if they have disclosed that they have AGP and have discussed this publicly.
The public debate has moved on a long way since Mumsnet produced the "Moderation Principles". The fact that AGP exists is now much more widely known. It seems like every week there is at least one article in the mainstream press by or about someone with AGP in which "controversial" aspects of AGP are mentioned in either neutral or positive terms.
In short, there seems to be an ongoing campaign in the media to "destigmatize" AGP. This in itself is something that merits feminist analysis. Mumsnet seems to be behind the curve on this, hampering discussion not only of a specific condition but also its politicisation.
There are a couple of very relevant articles on this in Unherd:
The taboo trans question
Why can't we ask what drives people to change sex?
BY SARAH DITUM - 10 March 2022
unherd.com/2022/03/the-taboo-trans-question/
Sarah links in her article to this article by a person who has AGP and is a member of Mumsnet:
Why I became trans
The psychological distress was so severe, I felt I had no choice
BY DEBBIE HAYTON - 24 August 2021
These are the closing paragraphs in that article - I honestly do hope this will not be deleted for "generalisation":
"Just as people with an atypical sexual orientation can be labelled as gay, those driven to atypical sexual signalling can be labelled as trans. So isn’t sexual signalling just gender identity by another name? Yes and no.
Yes, it is an innate quality that is hard-wired into us: it is not something that we can choose, and it can lead to transsexualism if we are driven to signal in the way typical of the other sex rather than our own. But no, sexual signalling does not supplant biological sex. When transgender activists chant “transwomen are women”, they are in effect demanding that gender identity replaces biological sex when we demarcate men and women. The deleterious impact of that approach on female people — “birthing bodies”, according to one female health charity — is profound.
Sexual signalling is also an observable reality, and it is a starting point to understand why some people are trans. There may be multiple different reasons, but I will focus on the group I know most about: heterosexual males who transitioned in midlife.
Not only can our maleness not be wished away — we are members of the sex that produces sperm, after all — I would claim that the reason why this group wants to wear dresses and makeup, grow out our hair and develop breasts is linked inextricably to our maleness. To quote another transsexual, Anne A Lawrence, we are “men trapped in men’s bodies”. That was the title of Lawrence’s book that contained a series of narratives written by autogynephilic male-to female transsexuals.
Autogynephilia was a term introduced in 1989 by the American-Canadian sexologist Ray Blanchard. Blanchard told me that autogynephilia denotes “a natal male’s tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman.” He added, “in the Western Hemisphere and English-speaking Commonwealth countries, the overwhelming majority of adult natal males presenting with gender dysphoria are of the autogynephilic type.”
It’s not difficult to conceive why autogynephilia can lead to severe psychological distress in heterosexual men attracted to their own bodies. Because their sexual and romantic interest is directed inwards — a target location error according to Blanchard — they respond by sexually signalling to themselves. But while their interest is in females (they are heterosexual), their bodies are male. Clothing may help to create an illusion of femaleness but, for some, medical transition may seem to be the only way to square the circle.
This scientific approach to just one form of male-to-female transsexualism is a world away from a metaphysical claim that “transwomen are women”. But the concept of gender identity has been comforting and politically useful for autogynephilic transsexuals in a society that stigmatises unusual male sexuality. Unsurprisingly, Blanchard’s theory provokes a very strong reaction in some.
It should not, however, be ignored: gender identity has caused significant collateral damage to children and adolescents, women’s rights, biomedical science and Western political life. Moreover, it is as unnecessary as the ether. Transsexuals — and other gender non-conforming people — do not need to invent an innate gender identity to understand ourselves.
We just have a need to communicate ourselves — sexually signal — as other human beings do, just in a way more typical of the opposite sex. There may be a host of reasons why that happens, of which autogynephilia is just one, but gender identity explains nothing. Worse, it hinders exploration into the conditions that make us the people we are."
Unless and until Mumsnet catches up with the zeitgeist and recognises that AGP is no longer being deliberately hidden from view but is being actively promoted by "AGP Activists" in the press and in Boardrooms across the UK, we will continue to be punished for "generalising" about AGP or discussing specific individuals who demonstrate well-documented characteristics of AGP.