The Cass Review- Interim Report

[rogdmum]

The Cass Review Interim Report has been released. 112 pages long and it’s such a bloody relief to read common sense.

cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

There’s so much in it, but emphasis on taking a holistic approach with a great chart on page 57 showing the complex presentations in and complex pathways.

And social transitioning has been recognised as an active intervention!

“Social transition – this may not
be thought of as an intervention or treatment, because it is not something
that happens within health services. However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning. There are different views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition. Whatever position one takes, it is important to acknowledge that it is not a neutral act, and better information is needed about outcomes.” Pages 62/63

So much in it. So much. And there’s more to come as the review continues to work on the issues.

And yes to never, ever hearing of male breasts.

It's just as ridiculous as a female penis, but men simply wouldn't accept it, would they. You cant sully the idea of manhood by claiming bosoms are all part of it.

Sorry I’m being lazy and not feeling well, what is ‘this’ that you cannot wait to be banned on schools? Thank you in advance

Speaking from my own undertstanding that would be the unilateral transing of very young children by encouraging any young child who is having a perfectly normal "I wanna be a cat" day, encouraging the change of name, social transing, not telling parents, reporting parents who express concern with these actions to SS and on and on and on.

As you know, having been on many threads were such actions have been discussed.

Also came across a tweet about an 18 year old detransitioned boy (previously a trans ‘girl’) who was on puberty blockers and is now 5ft 2 with a non functioning micro penis and feels he ‘has no place in the world’, it’s fucking heartbreaking... Where is the evidence puberty resumes as normal once blockers are stopped?

Has restarting the adolescent's correct puberty by administering the correct hormones for his or her body ever been trialled?

(Given that no 'gender-affirming' treatment has ever been properly trialled, perhaps that should say tested.)

@Lovelyricepudding

So not only is there inadequate information and data and evidence for treating girls, there likelywon'tbe for another few years. So this generation are genuinely an experiment. I find that chilling

No it is not an experiment. An experimental treatment would have clear procedures and data collection in order to answer a question. This isn't happening here. There is a complete disinterest in the long term outcome for these children. It is quite simply a medical scandal.

This would never pass ethical review (IRB) for a trial or clinical study. What has happened to clinicians' understanding that they are tolerating this because of civic and political interference?

My kid's pal had a double mastectomy last year. I don't believe that young person is trans, I believe they are gay and autistic. I've known that young person their whole life, and I love them, they are woven in the fabric of my life. And I worry what this news will do that young person, their parents, and all the children that we ALLOWED to be told lies when we believed those we thought knew best.

Similarly for friend's NB child. This is a child who welcomed the chance to go to a secondary school where they would know no-one because there had never been a history of friendships or an easy comprehension of social transactions. There are so many signs from early childhood that this was a child who might benefit from a knowledgeable assessment of this.

As the child started to develop a sexed body there was recourse to the warm embrace of a YT family that replaced the family in the actual space who supported and loved them. Child was coached in how to ask for intervention to be a male-presenting NB or [insert mental health negotiating tactic]. Full family supported social transition and was on the progression to blockers, hormones and more except it was disrupted by lockdown.

I won't give any more details but I am horribly distressed by what this has meant for the whole family and the relationships within it.

Child was coached in how to ask for intervention to be a male-presenting NB or [insert mental health negotiating tactic].

The Cass report says:

"We have heard that some young people learn through peers and social media what they should and should not say to therapy staff in order to access hormone treatment; for example, that they are advised not to admit to previous abuse or trauma, or uncertainty about their sexual orientation."

This is so sad.

@JellySaurus

Also came across a tweet about an 18 year old detransitioned boy (previously a trans ‘girl’) who was on puberty blockers and is now 5ft 2 with a non functioning micro penis and feels he ‘has no place in the world’, it’s fucking heartbreaking... Where is the evidence puberty resumes as normal once blockers are stopped?

Has restarting the adolescent's correct puberty by administering the correct hormones for his or her body ever been trialled?

(Given that no 'gender-affirming' treatment has ever been properly trialled, perhaps that should say tested.)

I believe (not an expert) that there's a point at which bone growth stops around or before that age so it wouldn't have any impact on height.

@ResisterRex

Child was coached in how to ask for intervention to be a male-presenting NB or [insert mental health negotiating tactic].

The Cass report says:

"We have heard that some young people learn through peers and social media what they should and should not say to therapy staff in order to access hormone treatment; for example, that they are advised not to admit to previous abuse or trauma, or uncertainty about their sexual orientation."

This is so sad.

One of the most blood boiling aspects of this was that the child wasn't just interacting with peers around the same age but mostly middle-aged adults. Having extensive, private conversations with people the parents would never, ever, have been quite so insouciant about in the real world (to be fair, the father was never signed up to this but couldn't see a way of protesting that wouldn't have led to him being ostracised from the household and forbidden contact).

But, the child spent literally hours every night with the YT family and other social media and then was completely drawn into this for a mindboggling amount of time and instructed not to leave the room and interact with the family in the same house.

I note that it's got up his nose that Hilary Cass said this is everyone's business. And he's indulging in a spot of mansplaining to claim that she didn't mean everyone, at all.

Yes, I noted that. And I'd like to correct him - child safeguarding IS everyone's business, as most people understand quite well without getting all defensive about it.

@Lovelyricepudding

So not only is there inadequate information and data and evidence for treating girls, there likelywon'tbe for another few years. So this generation are genuinely an experiment. I find that chilling

No it is not an experiment. An experimental treatment would have clear procedures and data collection in order to answer a question. This isn't happening here. There is a complete disinterest in the long term outcome for these children. It is quite simply a medical scandal.

You're quite right. JFC.

I am horribly distressed by what this has meant for the whole family and the relationships within it.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus me too.

My friends have no idea what's coming. They are fully confident they have made the right decision - these are thoughtful, kind, loving parents and they put their faith the gender clinic. Of course they did, I wouldn't question an oncologist if I had cancer, I'd trust that person had my best interests at heart and was using their expertise and science to improve my lot. Why would these kind, engaged, loving (and worried sick because the school and Mermaids told them their kid was a suicide risk) doubt the recommendations of a doctor in a specialist clinic, whom they believed to be at the top of their game?

I'll never forgive that doctor. I'll never forgive the inadequate politicians and medics and journalists and teachers who turned a blind eye to this. They knew, they bloody KNEW that you can't change sex, and they did not speak up.

I have a list of people I'd be happy to see go to jail because their cowardice or incompetence has caused enormous harm to my society and a young person that I love very much.

I think we need to call for an inquiry into exactly what the fuck has happened here.

to all families affected by this.

Can anyone help me understand what Jo Maugham means by this tweet? He says: "if you can't shake the feeling in your bones that being trans is an illness, your instinct is always going to be to 'cure it'. So much of England still thinks of being trans as a pathology."

Just...what? I don't think that being trans is an illness, and consequently I don't think children should have any medical interventions to treat it. They shouldn't be on puberty blockers or cross sex hormones. Kids should be left just the way they are. If it isn't an illness, then why do they need to take these harmful drugs and have surgery? Being trans isn't a pathology and that is precisely why children shouldn't be subjected to these treatments.

But earlier, Maugham goes on about how children NEED to go on puberty blockers so they don't grow up in the 'wrong body' which would ruin their chances of 'passing' as their desired gender later in life. How does this not contradict what he just said?

I guess what I'm asking is how can trans supporters hold these two premises at the same time?

1. being trans is a medical emergency. Children will commit suicide and lead painful lives unless they can get urgent care to block the wrong puberty and go on cross sex hormones.
2. being trans is not an illness. it is not a pathology to cure.

These seem inherently contradictory.

the child wasn't just interacting with peers around the same age but mostly middle-aged adults. Having extensive, private conversations with people the parents would never, ever, have been quite so insouciant about in the real world .....instructed not to leave the room and interact with the family in the same house.

Safeguarding 101. Right there.

Agree completely Domesticated we should, this is a scandal, rowing back on the rhetoric will require lots of support for the young people who have been harmed and misled. The NHS should not be politicised in its caring practice.
The private doctors shouldn’t be so unscrutinised.
We know a vast amount of pressure will be on the NHS to accommodate all the affirmation stuff, but professional leadership should have been robust enough to refuse it.

These seem inherently contradictory.

When a speaker appears to simultaneously state several contradictory views, the reason will be that both or all views serve another overarching coherent purpose. It's a case of identifying what this overarching purpose is. That overarching purpose is why the speaker does not appear troubled by the contradictions or the confusion involved: both are said to serve this purpose and represent their truth, so both to them can seem true at the same time.

Look at this CAREFULLY crafted response by the LGBT Foundation.

They look forward to engaging with The Cass Review going forward, they mention detransitioners, they say:

“ Regardless of whether children and young people, their families, and medical professionals decide together that certain social or medical transitions are appropriate for them, the support offered for them should be timely and respond to the full range of needs that the child or young person presents with.”

(So maybe social/medical transitions aren’t suitable for everyone..,)

lgbt.foundation/news/lgbt-foundation-statement-on-the-cass-report/468

It’s a very fawning statement and I seriously think these lobby groups have finally realised they are no longer calling the shots and so need to play nicely if they want any of their views to be heard.

I’m going to go further and say I think over time we’re going to see a change in how these groups position things. I think they’ll start to list various routes with social transition (and then medical transition) as one path, following that chart in the Cass report on p57

However, what they will do is do their best to make social/medical transition the most appealing option and so the end result will be the same.

I agree, @rogdmum.

I noticed that when Marci Bowers said "maybe surgery isn't for everyone" after making mincemeat of Jazz Jennings.

Positioning yourself as an expert in the challenges of when- transition-goes-bad is probably a good move. All the court cases are going to need expert witnesses and Marci will be able to charge highly for that.

That person is on my Jail Time hit list. In a male jail. Where ** fucking belongs.

Yes, I noted that. And I'd like to correct him - child safeguarding IS everyone's business, as most people understand quite well without getting all defensive about it.

Indeed.

I saw that @rogdmum but I wondered if they were flying a kite for other organisations that have yet to comment? See how this goes down, then others follow them or adapt etc.

I found your actual analysis interesting. I was just thinking what the tactics are and hadn't really thought about the substance.

@Artichokeleaves

These seem inherently contradictory.

When a speaker appears to simultaneously state several contradictory views, the reason will be that both or all views serve another overarching coherent purpose. It's a case of identifying what this overarching purpose is. That overarching purpose is why the speaker does not appear troubled by the contradictions or the confusion involved: both are said to serve this purpose and represent their truth, so both to them can seem true at the same time.

Indeed. The idea of a trans child serves the premise that late transitioning males have always had an issue, ever since they were children. It's not an adult condition, it's a lifelong condition from birth.

See the narratives of trans widows to get an idea of how often history has to be written to support that.

So you have a late transitioning males desperate for hormones and feminisation surgery, and because it's provided by the NHS, it needs to be a 'treatment'. But they don't want the concept of transgender to be considered a mental health issue, because suddenly people will ask why does a mental health issue need extra rights and why is it coupled to sexual orientation?

They will never be able to square the circle that something that is so desperately in need of treatment, never needs a cure.

Why would anyone be interested in someone who's of an age to give consent but has the understanding of a 12 year old?

And a body to match....