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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Cass Review- Interim Report

314 replies

rogdmum · 10/03/2022 09:12

The Cass Review Interim Report has been released. 112 pages long and it’s such a bloody relief to read common sense.

cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

There’s so much in it, but emphasis on taking a holistic approach with a great chart on page 57 showing the complex presentations in and complex pathways.

And social transitioning has been recognised as an active intervention!

“Social transition – this may not
be thought of as an intervention or treatment, because it is not something
that happens within health services. However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning. There are different views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition. Whatever position one takes, it is important to acknowledge that it is not a neutral act, and better information is needed about outcomes.” Pages 62/63

So much in it. So much. And there’s more to come as the review continues to work on the issues.

OP posts:
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WarriorN · 11/03/2022 07:52

Very good summary Datun.

A key aspect in a range of comorbid conditions is fear, insecurity and the need to extent some sort of control over those feelings and contexts.

This is exactly why toddlers and preschooler develop little foibles, resistance to things and tantrums, often especially in reaction to change or new things they're learning. They increasingly learn the world is an exciting but scary place and they have the ability to exert influence.

We see fear and anxiety in a lot in children on the autistic spectrum. Some of the young people I teach who are very capable and sociable communicators are actually the children with more anxious behaviours. A colleague has an autistic son and she often reflects that in some ways as he's less aware of the wider social world, that gives him a "softer bubble" to exist in.

Attempts to communicate fear or insecurity can translate to withdrawing, disengagement and often, particularly if the child also has adhd or has had trauma, extreme emotional reactions. Trying to cope in a 'normie world' (aka mainstream U.K. schooling) can create trauma for some. (Not all, these are generalisations.)

Anorexia is more common in teens with autism, often those not yet diagnosed and seemingly coping well in mainstream.

Traumatic experiences in childhood can create similar "symptoms" or observed behaviours to children with autism. I know of young people who have ended up with the autistic diagnosis as then the interventions and education routes are more appropriate for their needs.

It is not difficult to understand many aspects of gender dysphoria through the lens of an anxious need to gain some sort of control. And it shouldn't be difficult for the Tavistock quite frankly. I have many colleagues who understand this.

These are different between the sexes - for a male child I taught it wasn't about that. He just liked the stereotypes associated with the opposite sex. Very influenced by programs on tv and the stereotypical Disney films of the past. I don't believe he was gay either.

And despite what we are instructed by the National autistic society, there are definitely sensory involvements. If a child prefers the "wrong" sensory clothing styles associated with their sex, they are not "trans." In the last 15 years sensory processing needs has been added to the "triad" within autism social communication: social imagination, (social problem solving), and social interaction, because autistic people said these are the hardest aspects of daily life to deal with.

For some time I've noticed that Temple Grandin's voice has been quietly dropped. She has described perfectly these sensory difficulties and how she coped with them. She developed the squeeze box when she noticed how calming it was; we now have rollers in schools children can roll through. We have bear hugs which are basically like binders, but prescribed for short periods of time.

The thing is, as Dr Jess Taylor has been talking about, we have a tendency now in society and medicine to pathologise normal human emotions and reactions to events around us.

We can all experience feelings of pressure and a sense of needing some control over our lives. We all experience fear, low self esteem, burn out through over work.

I don't need to illustrate here how gender ideology offers a special status. When I was in my early 20s had friends who were involved in an active evangelical church. I remember being actively love bombed by them for a time, because they knew I was going through a tough time, before they realised I wasn't interested. I understood science and history and why religion is needed and used in communities. It came from a genuine will to help, but also because they had an ideology that they saw as the cure for everything. The church later imploded due to "scandals."

There needs to be a huge body of work around this, hopefully Cass will kick start it. It will take a long time to unpick the damage imbedded in organisations such as NAS, within education and within the nhs itself.

WarriorN · 11/03/2022 07:57

Yes indeed. I've said before that feminism should be taught in schools. Equipping girls, and boys, with the means to recognise sexism, understand how it manifests and why, and the means to combat it, would change society profoundly.

I do agree with this, but in a more neutral way. If we had "feminism classes" (I know you wouldn't be suggesting that but I know how it could become in schools) there would definitely be an incel back lash.

Understanding Sexism, as you describe, for both sexes, would be excellent.

ResisterRex · 11/03/2022 08:02

It's on the front page of the Telegraph today at the bottom but they don't do share tokens. It may well be archived somewhere though:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/10/doctors-treating-gender-dysphoria-feel-pressured-adopt-unquestioning/

It covers the "pressure" felt by primary and secondary care staff to "adopt an unquestioning affirmative approach" as well as the rapid increase, lack of consensus and open discussion.

I think The Times covers the most ground in its article.

LizzieSiddal · 11/03/2022 08:03

I wrote to the Times a few weeks ago about their increasing stance of turning comments off on articles discussing sex / gender identity. I never received a response. I wonder what is going on, too much moderation required possibly? I'm presuming only subscribers can comment. Would it be good if other people could raise this?

I sent an email yesterday and revived an email back within an hour. It said they turn off comments because of “legal reasons” and for “sensitive topics”. I suspect like you, it’s because certain people endlessly report the pro women comments and they don’t have the staff to moderate them, so womens rights are now viewed as “sensitive”. Whilst I’m not happy about this stance I am grateful for their fantastic journalism and will continue to support them with my subscription.

LizzieSiddal · 11/03/2022 08:06

Does anyone know why the head of this clinic is still in her job?

ResisterRex · 11/03/2022 08:23

The review was raised in Parliament yesterday. Danny Kruger said:

"I call attention to the interim report from Dr Hilary Cass, which is just out, which highlights the vertiginous increase in young teenage girls presenting as trans. I am afraid I do not believe that we have suddenly discovered a whole new population of trans people who were repressed or denied. I fear that, by telling people that they can change sex, we are further confusing a lot of very confused young people at the most confusing time of their life."
hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2022-03-10/debates/1C377E5F-9903-48CD-A036-1F1728D726B2/InternationalWomen’SDay#contribution-38C89591-3C89-4DD0-8175-F13B951A32D8

Bernard Jenkin said:

"Today’s interim report from the independent review of gender identity services for children and young people by Dr Hilary Cass notes the rapid increase in the number of adolescent girls presenting with gender distress. It states:

“At present we have the least information for the largest group of patients—birth registered females first presenting in early teen years”.

It is essential that we understand why we are witnessing this historically unprecedented number of young girls who are finding puberty so difficult to navigate. The Government’s proposed conversion therapy Bill must be reviewed in the light of this, and we must wait until the full report comes out before we present the Bill for Second Reading."

Joanna Cherry said:

"Others have mentioned the very welcome interim report on the Cass review today, and I hope the Minister will be able to assure us that the Government will look carefully at that report and look into the alarming phenomenon of so many young women feeling so uncomfortable with their identity as women as they go through puberty in our society that they feel they have to change their identity to cope with those pressures."
hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2022-03-10/debates/1C377E5F-9903-48CD-A036-1F1728D726B2/InternationalWomen’SDay#contribution-39D3D47E-C38E-43FB-8BE5-45E44144C67C

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 11/03/2022 08:30

@Morred

This is the bit that always boggles me. TRAs are adamant you can have “a female penis” and yet you can’t have a female Adam’s Apple or male breasts. Bizarre.
I remember a video of a TW who announced an intention to stop all personal use of vocal feminisation. As above, argued that if TWAW there could not be any need to adopt a high vocal register or anything else speech therapy taught because, by definition, TW's voice must be a woman's voice.

Can anybody remember who I mean?

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 11/03/2022 08:43

@LizzieSiddal

Does anyone know why the head of this clinic is still in her job?
Because honour and a true embrace of Nolan and leadership are absent in plain sight.

Because we live at a time when our leaders and seniors occupy a rarefied strata where they flourish in a culture of impunity.

Because we're in a genuine battle between the humanity, utility, and moral authority of democracies and autocracies at every level of civil, political and geopolitical life. That’s what’s at stake here. Democracy would see the demand for accountability for those who facilitated this if they didn't have the honour to go. People like Sonia Appleby and David Bell would be valorised for everything they did to protect children.

DomesticatedZombie · 11/03/2022 09:03

'5.11.
At present we have the least information for the largest group of patients – birth-registered females first presenting in early teen years. Since the rapid increase in this group began around 2015, they will not reach late 20s for another 5+ years, which would be the best time to assess longer-term wellbeing.'

So not only is there inadequate information and data and evidence for treating girls, there likely won't be for another few years. So this generation are genuinely an experiment. I find that chilling.

KittyLeMew · 11/03/2022 09:11

I’ve had a look on Twitter and the pushback this is getting from TRAs is genuinely upsetting. WHY DO THEY WANT TO CONFUSE, TRANS AND RUIN THE LIVES OF CHILDREN, MAKE THEM INFERTILE, MAKE THEM LIFELONG PATIENTS I don’t understand it’s so obviously morally and ethically wrong? LEAVE CHILDREN ALONE!

Really sick of this now. Vile, damaging ideology.

Signalbox · 11/03/2022 09:24

@KittyLeMew

I’ve had a look on Twitter and the pushback this is getting from TRAs is genuinely upsetting. WHY DO THEY WANT TO CONFUSE, TRANS AND RUIN THE LIVES OF CHILDREN, MAKE THEM INFERTILE, MAKE THEM LIFELONG PATIENTS I don’t understand it’s so obviously morally and ethically wrong? LEAVE CHILDREN ALONE!

Really sick of this now. Vile, damaging ideology.

They are so obsessed with aesthetics aren't they? The idea that someone goes through the "wrong puberty" and this means that they will be unhappy for life because they'll have the wrong look is held above everything else.

The importance of fertility, health and sexual function (or difficulties in finding the a life partner) are considered of secondary importance despite the fact that these are the things that most adults would say are important for a fulfilled/happy life.

nolongersurprised · 11/03/2022 09:33

The importance of fertility, health and sexual function

This is the part I find downright macabre. The - largely - middle aged, intact men who are pushing for puberty blockers for male children are focused on how well these children will “pass” as adults. Less so on how a 22 year old man who has received puberty blockers and cross sex hormones as a boy will be entering adulthood with the genitals of a nine year old boy. No sexual function, no orgasms, infertile. Who will want to be their sexual partners?

tabbycatstripy · 11/03/2022 09:43

I'm maddened by what's happening in terms of women's ability to speak out about this stuff. I'm having trouble with Twitter because (for obvious reasons) I want to hold two accounts. But Twitter has decided I'm a bot and suspended/restricted access. I would lose my income if I spoke openly about Cass and my beliefs about gender (which are perfectly reasonable and legal). But I want to be politically engaged and I shouldn't have to worry about saying what I think within the law.

KittyLeMew · 11/03/2022 10:04

In this thread Sarah Philimore has been tackling the Fox Killer on exactly this:

mobile.twitter.com/SVPhillimore/status/1501897875105755137

Also came across a tweet about an 18 year old detransitioned boy (previously a trans ‘girl’) who was on puberty blockers and is now 5ft 2 with a non functioning micro penis and feels he ‘has no place in the world’, it’s fucking heartbreaking... Where is the evidence puberty resumes as normal once blockers are stopped? What about the fact that 98-100 per cent on blockers go on to fertility ending cross sex hormones? What about the surgeries and irreversible changes that occur on the way?

Detransitioner Awareness today tomorrow, would be good to amplify this where possible, make sure these stories are being shared and heard.

Thingybob · 11/03/2022 10:32

They are so obsessed with aesthetics aren't they?

It was good to see that GIDS (and ex GIDs) clinicians who have contributed to the Cass Review don't share that obsession when considering treatment options.

Respondents were asked how they would describe the main purpose of puberty blockers when discussing treatment options with a child/young person

file:///Users/imacbill/Downloads/Gender-specialists-questionnaire-report_FINAL-1.pdf

The Cass Review- Interim Report
rogdmum · 11/03/2022 10:35

@DomesticatedZombie

'5.11. At present we have the least information for the largest group of patients – birth-registered females first presenting in early teen years. Since the rapid increase in this group began around 2015, they will not reach late 20s for another 5+ years, which would be the best time to assess longer-term wellbeing.'

So not only is there inadequate information and data and evidence for treating girls, there likely won't be for another few years. So this generation are genuinely an experiment. I find that chilling.

I remember sitting in a meeting with the Head of Guidance and Year Head in January 2020 saying exactly that. I said: “affirmation is an experimental approach and I do not give permission for my daughter to be part of this experiment.”

They just blankly stared at me.

OP posts:
DomesticatedZombie · 11/03/2022 11:01

It seems to me this report is retty much vindication of everything feminists and parents have been trying to say for the past few years.

KittyLeMew · 11/03/2022 11:30

EXACTLY! @DomesticatedZombie

At what stage will government etc realise that they are not dealing with rational people who listen to expert opinion/evidence and just cut them out of the process?

We don’t have to appease these people - they don’t have rights to force their ideology onto children - when will this be stopped and children finally, properly be protected?

I’m just baffled by how entrenched this all still feels... but is that just shouty TRA voices on Twitter and nowhere else?

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 11/03/2022 11:38

@DomesticatedZombie it is.

So much for the "toxic vipers" trope.

I should feel happy to see this evidence which backs up my opinion. I should feel relieved.

But, I am tearful. I'm sad. My kid's pal had a double mastectomy last year. I don't believe that young person is trans, I believe they are gay and autistic. I've known that young person their whole life, and I love them, they are woven in the fabric of my life. And I worry what this news will do that young person, their parents, and all the children that we ALLOWED to be told lies when we believed those we thought knew best.

The consequences of affirmation are unknown.

I expect we will see suicides in trans people after all. And I am tearful about it because it is so sad. I want trans people to be happy and healthy - that's not bigotry.

Thank goodness Dr Cass' report has happened. Thank goodness for Baroness Nicolson, Joanna Cherry, JK Rowling, Maya Forstater, Marion Calder, Susan Smith, and all the HCPs, civil servants, police, judges, social workers, teachers, councillors and counsellors who have been brave enough to say "this is not right".

Thank goodness for Justine and Mumsnet. I often wonder how many people who are now GC started off on here.

Justine, thank you. Sincerely, I've seen the abuse and attacks and unpleasantness that has been directed at you. Creating this board, and protecting this board, made a place where women could speak and collaborate and galvanise - and that will save lives.

Thank you.

Masdintle · 11/03/2022 11:43

Hear hear, viv. Thank you Justine and all the vipers

Lovelyricepudding · 11/03/2022 11:45

So not only is there inadequate information and data and evidence for treating girls, there likelywon'tbe for another few years. So this generation are genuinely an experiment. I find that chilling

No it is not an experiment. An experimental treatment would have clear procedures and data collection in order to answer a question. This isn't happening here. There is a complete disinterest in the long term outcome for these children. It is quite simply a medical scandal.

StellaAndCrow · 11/03/2022 11:53

@Morred

This is the bit that always boggles me. TRAs are adamant you can have “a female penis” and yet you can’t have a female Adam’s Apple or male breasts. Bizarre.
I think this is a really interesting point. Why indeed can you have a female penis but not a female Adam's Apple or deep voice?

I'm guessing they wouldn't want us to think about that . . .

Toomie · 11/03/2022 11:57

Vivarium
"Thank goodness for Justine and Mumsnet. I often wonder how many people who are now GC started off on here.

Justine, thank you. Sincerely, I've seen the abuse and attacks and unpleasantness that has been directed at you. Creating this board, and protecting this board, made a place where women could speak and collaborate and galvanise - and that will save lives.

Thank you."

Thirded!

Prompted by this interim report, I have finally subscribed to Mumsnet Premium in recognition of the role this forum has had in moving the agenda forward and the difficulties they have/continue to face in holding a space for discussion.

I am one of the many who have been educated here and over the past 4 years have personally moved from a place of complete ignorance to being as active as I can in challenging gender ideology.

I also wrote to MN yesterday letting them know why I had subscribed. The discussion rules for this board may not be perfect but it remains one of the most accessible places where the issues can be aired. Here they are explored and discussed in astonishing detail by incredibly well informed and articulate women. We can talk and learn and get involved and newbies can discover.

THANK YOU again

StellaAndCrow · 11/03/2022 11:58

@DomesticatedZombie

'5.11. At present we have the least information for the largest group of patients – birth-registered females first presenting in early teen years. Since the rapid increase in this group began around 2015, they will not reach late 20s for another 5+ years, which would be the best time to assess longer-term wellbeing.'

So not only is there inadequate information and data and evidence for treating girls, there likely won't be for another few years. So this generation are genuinely an experiment. I find that chilling.

If it was an experiment, then they'd need a hypothesis as to how puberty blockers were supposed to benefit girls who want to present as male. How does blocking puberty and so reducing their final height help them?
Datun · 11/03/2022 11:59

@KittyLeMew

In this thread Sarah Philimore has been tackling the Fox Killer on exactly this:

mobile.twitter.com/SVPhillimore/status/1501897875105755137

Also came across a tweet about an 18 year old detransitioned boy (previously a trans ‘girl’) who was on puberty blockers and is now 5ft 2 with a non functioning micro penis and feels he ‘has no place in the world’, it’s fucking heartbreaking... Where is the evidence puberty resumes as normal once blockers are stopped? What about the fact that 98-100 per cent on blockers go on to fertility ending cross sex hormones? What about the surgeries and irreversible changes that occur on the way?

Detransitioner Awareness today tomorrow, would be good to amplify this where possible, make sure these stories are being shared and heard.

I note that it's got up his nose that Hilary Cass said this is everyone's business. And he's indulging in a spot of mansplaining to claim that she didn't mean everyone, at all.

Can't have people who have not been preapproved give him benefit of their knowledge, can we.