Penny logic

[LittleWhingingWoman]

"There’s a certain twisted interior logic to it, until you think about it for five minutes and start asking such heretical questions as why on earth, for instance, a man would go to all the trouble of legally changing his gender just to commit sexual assault in a society that already allows most rapists to walk free. " says Laura Penny.

Ok I'll go first.
Penny is saying why would rapists get creative when they get away with it anyway.

Because they also have a sexual fetish for womens clothes. Does she not understand this? Because they are thrilled by having laws changed to accommodate their rapist behaviours. Because they are addicted to lies and secrets and furtive colonising of womens and childrens spaces. Why do rapists become priests if they can do it in the open Laurie?

Apologies Twitterwhooooo I haven't read the transcript and was just going by the clip, so wasn't aware of the background to the full payment story. I can well believe that she was pulling a fast one for her own PR because that seems to be what she does.

(I think I picked up from Benjamin Cohen and the green-haired Welsh mayor on the Nolan podcast that one does not become non-binary, one has always been so, though one may not 'discover' it until a certain age. So, you know - Starkey was completely wrong to read her as a young woman. What a chump!)

...I think it's simply because people in their circles don't require logical or reasonable arguments, only mantras. They're not used to having to argue a point and defend a position, and they're stunned when the usual go-to shaming techniques or catechisms don't work. Jameela Jamil's Insta is full of all these repetitive big declarations, binary thinking, goodies and baddies, never any shades of grey or evidence or well-considered points. Simply put, they're out of their depth. Compare this to JK Rowling's essay which was so well considered and aimed to be sensitive whilst arguing her point. I mean, some of the things these TRA women are saying quite simply make them look like they've lost the plot - that abusive men don't pretend to be something they're not? Have they never read a newspaper of any kind on any day of the week ever in their lives? That's pretty much the whole content of newspapers. That trans people are who they say they are - what, all the time? Why would that be, no-one else on the planet is who they say they are all the time. They're completely preposterous in the things they come out with. They're incapable of anything other than black and white thinking. Compare this to gender critical voices that always preface any statement with how trans people deserve rights and to live free of discrimination, which is met with death threats. It's obvious which voice is the voice of reason here. What we have here is two groups of people, one set who understand that reality is complicated, that bad people exist and you can't just ignore them you have to protect the vulnerable from them, and that's not to say that trans people are inherently bad and they deserve the same rights as everyone else, but some will be bad or just opportunists. Then there are those those who are so wedded to an ideology that rational and balanced thinking is no longer possible because they believe their ideology will 'save' them from the same fate of other, lowly women, so anyone who doesn't believe in the miraculous possibility of 'being born in someone else's body' is simply evil, a fascist, weaponising trauma, being rude and should avert their eyes when being flashed at etc etc

Yes Starkey is unpleasant. Penny should have known better than to play that game with him, though.

Neither Penny or Starkey covered themselves in glory on that video. It was hugely aggressive to be in someone’s face with a finger. No questions.

It is however interesting to see the same thinking expressed by Penny then as now.

They feel they can ‘call people’ out, directly label them with whatever label they want, and feel completely justified. When their own behaviour is called into question, there is this victim status claim.

I wonder if they are even aware of the pattern. Even though I have seen it pointed out before. I suspect Penny would simply not compute they are doing it.

It is their defensive mechanism, long ingrained. The ‘TRA?’ tweet really shows that up. Penny doesn’t like the label so even though it fits snugly, will bristle at it being applied to them. Yet is supremely confident that they have the right to fling transphobe and fascist at women who are not those things at all.

Penny’s whole stance around sex binaries (actually patriarchal structures/stereotypes) is a huge and basic misunderstanding - she isnt particularly intelligent, seems incapable of (or certainly unconcerned with) analysis, doesn’t support her statements with facts/citations/research, and her recent book (and likely other books) just seems to be a kind of contradictory, unsupported drivel stream of consciousness with a few cringe anecdotes thrown in as ‘evidence’. I think she’s just got away with it before because she hadn’t pissed as many people off, but since all her that/they fuckery, response to the WiSpa incident and generally throwing women/girls under a bus no one is up for that any more. She shouldn’t be indulged, her views are offensive and dangerous. If I was being charitable, I’d consider that her current meltdown might be linked to some level of cognisance that she’s picked the wrong side and fucked herself (probably most importantly to her) as well as women/girls over, but she is also a horribly spoiled manic-pixie-dimwit so it may well just be some standard toy-pram throwing.

Jameela Jamil is another one who thinks she’s far more intelligent than she actually is, yet doesn’t take the time to research/stand up her statements. Her tweet about puberty blockers was unforgivable and I look forward to her being held to account in years to come when the full horrible scale of what is happening right now with kids and teens comes out.

Other issues aside, the fact that LP is privileged does not mean she's somehow exempt from rape or sexual assault.

It's notable that LP doesn't extend JKR the compassion that she does to herself. afaict, LP has never called upon her followers on any social media platform to refrain from abusing JKR who has a comparably traumatic history.

LP couldn't find it within herself to feel empathy for a little girl in re: the Wi Spa incident. I'm truly sorry if that is related to her complex PTSD (I trust that that is the diagnosis of a professional from whom she has received support). However, like PPs, I wonder why LP is comfortable using her considerable influence to shape others response to such incidents when her trauma prevents her from expressing (or perhaps experiencing?) empathy for others in traumatic circumstances.*

*NB: I am aware that LP has empathy for some groups but it seems absent for girls and women who want single-sex spaces and effective safeguarding.

On the subject of Jameela it's worth remembering that she has said some pretty unpleasant things in the past about women - that the menopause sends 40+ women "crazy", and things that would be considered by many to be "fat shaming" or "slut shaming".

I'm not saying that people can't grow and change, but she hasn't always been the "relatable feminist" she now strives to show herself to be.

Honestly, claiming bad book reviews triggered complex PTSD is loathsome.

I have no doubt the reviews upset her and she probably cried very hard.

Honestly, claiming bad book reviews triggered complex PTSD is loathsome.

Which is the point Julie Bindel was making, as she says in her article.

The peak of her outrage came on Monday this week when she appeared to suggest that the bad reviews had either caused or triggered her CPTSD (Complex Post-Traumatic Disorder). I went berserk, having worked with and interviewed scores of women who genuinely do suffer from PTSD — a condition brought on by a terrifying, near-death experience, such as armed combat or rape and attempted murder. Penny was roundly trounced, and I tweeted a joke about it all that the outstanding feminist JK Rowling responded to. All hell broke loose and the internet went wild. So, what did Penny do? She picked up a spade and dug a deep trench.

@MiladyBerserko

Honestly, claiming bad book reviews triggered complex PTSD is loathsome.

I have no doubt the reviews upset her and she probably cried very hard.

LP reports themself to be a survivor of rape and multiple sexual assaults as the heart of the complex PTSD.

That was then triggered through book criticism.

LP reports themself to be a survivor of rape and multiple sexual assaults as the heart of the complex PTSD.

That was then triggered through book criticism.

I completely believe that she has suffered trauma from sexual assault and rape. This is not how it is triggered, however. In-person threats and confrontations, not written reviews of your literary work, are what trigger PTSD. If anyone is weaponizing trauma it is her. There seems to be a lot of projection that goes on with TRAs. Like with Penny claiming all these identities to try to disguise her privilege, then in the clip above trying to take on 'the man' in the form of David Starkey, when in fact:
"His father, the son of a cotton spinner, was a foreman in a washing-machine factory, while his mother followed in her father's footsteps and became a cotton weaver and later a cleaner.[6][7] He was raised in an austere and frugal environment of near-poverty, with his parents often unemployed for long periods of time".
I've had this happen to me, it's particularly galling when you've grown up in poverty with child abuse and domestic violence, to then have someone from a rich, stable family home who has been to the very best schools claim you only think the way you do because you're a Cis woman/white/middle-class/privileged/Tory/Far Right/Evangelic Christian etc etc. while to boot, they are completely dismissing the concerns for poor and vulnerable women. Not a massive fan of Starkey either by the way, but he was right to be pissed off here.

I suppose because they know they're faking their own oppression they expect everyone else is as well, or perhaps it's just to deflect any scrutiny of their own credentials.

it's particularly galling when you've grown up in poverty with child abuse and domestic violence, to then have someone from a rich, stable family home who has been to the very best schools claim you only think the way you do because you're a Cis woman/white/middle-class/privileged/Tory/Far Right/Evangelic Christian etc etc. while to boot, they are completely dismissing the concerns for poor and vulnerable women

I completely agree with this. However, I'm open to the possibility that somebody with CPTSD might struggle to respond with empathy to the vulnerability of women and girls (as above).

I am crediting LP with having had a confirmed diagnosis and working with an appropriately credentialled therapist. I would hope that this would not be another area where people's readiness to self-diagnose is corroding the public understanding or awareness of a difficult condition.

This is not how it is triggered, however. In-person threats and confrontations, not written reviews of your literary work, are what trigger PTSD.

As a general point, MIND has considerably looser triggers for CPTSD, listing experiences, situations, smells, sounds etc..

You might find that certain experiences, situations or people seem to trigger flashbacks or other symptoms.

www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/post-traumatic-stress-disorder-ptsd-and-complex-ptsd/self-care/

I have loved this week and it was roundly topped by LP's 'pretentious, moi?' moment.

The walls are tumbling down, they really are.

But remember that every time this happens, there is a backlash. One of which is the glitches on many, many GC type Twitter accounts this week.

There will be a long road back, with policies needing to be rewritten and training needing to be reviewed. And everyone will of course say they always knew there were two sexes, they were always talking about gender so it's all ok. Move along.

Laurie Penny is completely immune to the trauma of other women, so much so that she insists that males should be allowed to show their junk to women and little girls in single sex spaces such as WiSpa, and even more, tells young girls it's 'rude' to look or complain. She has zero compasssion for other women, yet we are expected to have sympathy for her because she had mocking reviews of her shitty book?

No.

However, I'm open to the possibility that somebody with CPTSD might struggle to respond with empathy to the vulnerability of women and girls (as above).
Absolutely, like I said before, it's a very human response to want to distance oneself from the idea of victimhood when you have been a victim yourself - why so many who have been abused go into sex work as an attempt to diminish the importance of non-consensual sex - 'it's just a job'.
As a general point, MIND has considerably looser triggers for CPTSD, listing experiences, situations, smells, sounds etc..
For sure, but a book review when you're an author? Surely you don't go into that profession and only expect to ever receive positive reviews. I could understand it more if the reviews were coming from someone she would expect a positive review from, but did she really think Julie Bindel was going to praise her?

Yep, Embarrassing, agreeing with you there, PTSD and CPTSD can have diverse and unexpected triggers. I don't think its necessary nor accurate to say what can and can't trigger someone's mental health responses.

I've spoken at length to people suffering from CPTSD, including one veteran who was mostly 'triggered' by the absence of being in a theatre of war. He found normal, day to day life almost impossible. So - it can be complex and I would suggest best not speculated on for the most part.

Perhaps people calling people fascists need a thicker skin when the people accused of being fascists point out that being concerned with actual females isn't actually fascist.

Even if a bad book review had triggered PTSD, it's not on those reviewing her book to only give it praise lest it upset the author. If you're finding your chosen career path too triggering, either look into doing something else or get the appropriate help, don't demand people only ever write glowing reviews of your work!

Or even better, and here's a really novel idea, listen to what those reviews are saying and honestly and thoroughly reassess your position.

I think what Penny is really triggered by is being forced to take a long hard look at herself and the world, which she normally shields herself from by obscuring it with identities and ideologies that are not based in reality. I imagine it is pretty jarring.

Did LP ever worry about the people being called fascists? Perhaps reading her words might have triggered CPTSD from, you know, actual real life fascism?

@wateronthebrain do you mean take a open-minded approach that some people do not rate your work and disagree with you, reflect on their comments and move forwards?

It just seems too 'real world' for someone living in an ideological bubble, which is ultimately like living in a glass house. LP can throw out, but not receive unless it's fluffy and kind.

[quote Enough4me]@wateronthebrain do you mean take a open-minded approach that some people do not rate your work and disagree with you, reflect on their comments and move forwards?

It just seems too 'real world' for someone living in an ideological bubble, which is ultimately like living in a glass house. LP can throw out, but not receive unless it's fluffy and kind.[/quote]
Well, quite. I'm not even saying she has to change her position, just to be prepared to defend it, rather than doing the adult equivalent of running off crying and telling everyone they're big meanies for calling her out. It's embarrassing that such fragile, sheltered, ludicrous women are calling themselves feminists, frankly. Also, you'd think that when feminists with the credentials of Julie Bindel and JK Rowling call you out, you'd at the very least consider what they have to say, rather than decide they've suddenly become 'fascists'. I mean, how many charitable foundations for women has Penny set up? How much money has she donated to their causes? How many women has she helped to get out of prison?

@MiladyBerserko

Laurie Penny is completely immune to the trauma of other women, so much so that she insists that males should be allowed to show their junk to women and little girls in single sex spaces such as WiSpa, and even more, tells young girls it's 'rude' to look or complain. She has zero compasssion for other women, yet we are expected to have sympathy for her because she had mocking reviews of her shitty book?

No.

For someone who has experienced sexual trauma Laurie Penny has little to no care for anyone else her victim blaming of the girl at the WiSpa was revolting - don't look at a semi-erect penis being waved in your face by a sex offender.

Notably also Laurie Penny seems to think it perfectly acceptable for male rapists and sex offenders to be given access to ever more potential victims and women who have already suffered sexual violence whose PTSD will be triggered by this just so long as said males rapist declares they are a woman. But no-one must criticise her book because of her trauma, boo fucking hoo.