Penny logic

[LittleWhingingWoman]

"There’s a certain twisted interior logic to it, until you think about it for five minutes and start asking such heretical questions as why on earth, for instance, a man would go to all the trouble of legally changing his gender just to commit sexual assault in a society that already allows most rapists to walk free. " says Laura Penny.

Ok I'll go first.
Penny is saying why would rapists get creative when they get away with it anyway.

Because they also have a sexual fetish for womens clothes. Does she not understand this? Because they are thrilled by having laws changed to accommodate their rapist behaviours. Because they are addicted to lies and secrets and furtive colonising of womens and childrens spaces. Why do rapists become priests if they can do it in the open Laurie?

I have to admit, Laurie penny was quite astonishing on twitter today including (for those who cannot see twitter)....

..... and, I think my favourite....

I remember ages ago how we were all discussing how this might end, and we discussed the prominent figures who were absolutely immersed in this - penny, and others like Owen Jones, jolyon Maughan, jameela jamil etc, the ones that absolutely would not give an inch when it came to women's rights and were vicious in their attacks.

We said something like there would be complete denial, claims that fheir words were misrepresented: no, that wasn't what they REALLY meant, they NEVER thought we were bigots, fascist etc, SOME people were saying that and they were just reporting, they didn't WANT same sex spaces spaces to be removed.... They didn't WANT erasure of gendered language...

And is this the start of it?

Penny is so lacking in intelligence and basic common sense, the WiSpa incident completely blows her stupid statement out of the water.

Secondly, she is too thick to realise that predators won't have to change gender just say they have to be allowed unlimited access to female only single sex spaces because and I'll say it slowly so you understand LP: No-one. Is. Allowed. To. Ask. If. They. Have. A. GRC. It has to be taken on trust and again LP, what kind of person do you think will take advantage of that?

Thirdly, LP, heard of the opportunity bit when criminal acts are committed? Such a good idea to give predators more opportunities to predate, lots more potential victims, lots more actual victims, how fabulous.

I think what's going on with the female TRA is that they think they're better than women who are poor, who are in domestic violence situations, who are mothers - all these situations we're talking about where women's single sex spaces and female specific language are being erased. Female TRAs just can't relate to poor or vulnerable women, and don't want to. To do so would remind them of their own vulnerability against male violence, a female's comparative physical disadvantage, and the vulnerable positions we often find ourselves in. Often not having children, they can't relate to mothers, think they are a different type of human being to themselves: inferiors for sacrificing their time and bodies to another human being, all the work involved that doesn't feed the ego - why would anyone want to do that? Perhaps there are some mummy issues thrown in to boot. It's a common thing, to want to blame and distance yourself from victims and the vulnerable, because to have empathy is to imagine how their fate could be yours, and Penny's ego is far to big for that.
Females like Penny claim to be non-binary and align themselves with men's wishes over women's, because they think it will protect them, that they can opt out of potential victim status this way. I actually feel a lot of compassion for that, we all have to deal with these issues as women, but Penny's way of dealing with this is dysfunctional, will not ultimately serve her well and will potentially contribute to further damage to the rights of vulnerable women in the process. I don't know about CPTSD, but they sound like they do have a lot of trauma that they're dealing with, but they haven't yet scratched the surface or found a functional way of dealing with it.

Ugh, please excuse typos and how badly written that was.

@wateronthebrain

Ugh, please excuse typos and how badly written that was.

That post was excellent.

@TheCurrywurstPrion

”why on earth, for instance, a man would go to all the trouble of legally changing his gender just to commit sexual assault in a society that already allows most rapists to walk free.”

I think there’s a complete misunderstanding here of the psychology. Some men might want this simply because they can, because it’s subversive.

Even if he doesn’t choose to take the legal change, the law sends a message to him that the government is giving him more rights to do as he pleases. It sends a message that the government believes that men should be able to access women’s spaces and that if he does so, the women will be unable to ask enforcers to exclude him just for being there, as they once would have been able to. He now has a right to be there. All he has to do is claim he is a woman. Nobody can prove he’s not.

I was thinking about the general issue of men in women’s spaces when debating this elsewhere. A committed transactivist (female) was arguing that crime figures didn’t warrant all this angst and that being afraid of strange men was illogical. She said perhaps parents should stop emphasizing “stranger danger” to children.

My parents never particularly emphasized that concept to me. I learned it as a teenager, when men committed verbal sexual assault/exhibitionism on me. It occurred in secluded spaces those men had almost certainly selected for the purpose. I was not physically hurt and there was no criminal report made. But the fact that I can remember how threatening it felt forty years on suggests it had quite a significant psychological effect.

And she, and the Scottish government, want to send those men an invitation into women’s private spaces and they either think it won’t lead to harm, or think the harm is justified to help other vulnerable men?

It’s the height of woman hatred. I can’t see it any other way.

Brilliantly articulated!

A couple of quality tweets.

I don't understand why Penny was so surprised and traumatised by those (admittedly savage) book reviews. Surely if you choose such a provocative topic and treat it in such a wantonly exhibitionistic manner you must expect everything you get..?

A real "public spasm of self-delusion", in fact.

Speaking of which, transcript of a debate between Pennywise and David Starkey in 2012: www.discovermagazine.com/mind/starkey-vs-penny-transcript

I hold no brief to defend DS but fuck me, Penny is schooled.

I only recently found out that LP used to go out with "Grace" Lavery, which explains a lot.

I think what's abundantly clear is that Penny finds the harsh realities of life very difficult, same with a lot of these women who want to give out rights away. They bury their heads in the sand and resort to magical thinking. Unfortunately, no, you can't opt out of the dangers and prejudices females face by simply claiming you're 'non-binary', you're always going to have to deal with it. Yes, abusive men do lie and pretend they're something they're not to gain access to vulnerable women, and trying to blur gender boundaries and thus give these abusive men unlimited access to potential victims will not magically change that, we will always have to deal with it. Yes, when you publish a book on subject matter you're not qualified to talk about and it is heavily biased and lacking in evidence of thorough research, people will criticise it. No, a little girl being flashed at by a male (however he identifies) in a changing room is not being rude for staring, she is a victim of a sex crime. These people are so fragile they can't handle the idea that there are bad people out there, that it's not all glitter and rainbows. We're not dealing with rationality, it's all a protective mechanism. I don't want this to sound in any way anti-autistic, I'm far from it and have loved ones who are on the spectrum, but the same kind of black and white thinking can be a protective mechanism for extreme sensitivity, a way of trying to feel in control of a world that seems overwhelming. I don't know Penny's diagnoses, but I think that it's no coincidence that so many people who are claiming a trans status are autistic. I know this has already been observed and discussed a lot on here, but I feel it's not talked about enough in the press.

And as for the "TRA? Who, me?" tweet, wasn't it Penny who was lickspittle-cheerleading at Grace Lavery awhile back, full of admiration for Lavery's vaunted debate prowess (amongst other things..) and gratitude that Lavery "was on our side"?

@teawamutu

Speaking of which, transcript of a debate between Pennywise and David Starkey in 2012: www.discovermagazine.com/mind/starkey-vs-penny-transcript

I hold no brief to defend DS but fuck me, Penny is schooled.

And here's a video of it.

ScreamingMeMe Oh, that's glorious! Her face is a picture.

I don't think LP is opting out of womanhood, I think she's trying to opt out of privilege. The hierarchies created by critical theory places white 'cis' women very near the top. Her intersectionalism will tell her that she's the oppressor simply by dint of her privilege (which, given her background, is enormous). She can't bear to think of her self as the baddie, hence non-binary, the easiest, laziest, 'trans' identity of all.

The transcript shows how much she likes playing the victim - yet again, as per what JK Rowling said, she can dish it out but she can't take it. I don't know why we have so many posh faux feminists like this being given such a platform - the likes of her and Jameela Jamil (I at least agree with Jameela on some things). I mean, they're hardly the voice of the woman in the street and yet they both I think like to present themselves as though they're the everywoman. They've led such privileged lives, sheltered in many ways, why do they take it upon themselves to speak for women without ever checking their own privilege? Jameela's another one who's got a new identity every week, and yes, she is a woman of colour, but she's an extremely pretty and rich one who went to a posh school and has only ever had a successful career in the media from a young age. I'm not denying the importance of race, but she's hardly from the ghetto. Again, I think it's very deeply ingrained that they see themselves as superior, a completely different breed to 'ordinary' women. They play at left wing politics, but they clearly couldn't give a shit about women less fortunate than themselves when it comes down to it, they're just goldfishing the words. I think they're given a tokenistic platform as 'the face' of feminism, simply because they're young and relatively attractive - or at least when their careers started, they're both getting on for forty now. I'm not saying that to be bitchy or that's the way it should be, but it's the way the media works, and they must be aware of that. What next Jameela, when men stop finding your talk of feminism cute anymore because they're no longer interested in looking down your top? When they start getting annoyed at all the shit you talk because they've noticed you're getting jowls and are no longer distracted by staring at your tits?

The transcript shows how much she likes playing the victim - yet again, as per what JK Rowling said, she can dish it out but she can't take it.

Oh yes, Laurie Penny feel entitled to say what she likes about other people, aim whatever criticism she can at them but oh dear me can't possibly be on the receiving end of the same treatment. Nothing more than a privileged hypocrite.

Oops I forgot to mention heterosexual in that description of LP. That makes her even more of an oppressor. Saying she's non-binary means she can call herself queer and undo that wretched privilege.

TBF David Starkey is excessively unpleasant and I found it uncomfortable to watch him standing over Laurie Penny and jabbing his finger in her face while telling her she was unreasonable in expecting to be paid for her work.

But the reason he did that is because he read her as a woman, and felt she was above herself and needed to be put in her place.

Her non-binary identity did not protect her from that. And yet she still can't see who is really marginalised and oppressed?

What strikes me about the panel with David Starkey and her Twitter exchanges with Julie Bindel and JK Rowling is that for someone who has worked in the media for decades, Laurie has an extraordinary lack of awareness about how to communicate in the public domain.

I'm certainly no DS apologist, but she must have prepared that speech attacking him - how did she THINK he might respond?

Ditto, Tweeting. I know that you can Tweet very quickly without much thought, but for someone in the public eye, why DOESN'T she put any thought in to how her Tweets might land?

Her attempts to play the victim NEVER work out how she wants them to, but she persists in playing the same record over and over again.

@unwashedanddazed

Oops I forgot to mention heterosexual in that description of LP. That makes her even more of an oppressor. Saying she's non-binary means she can call herself queer and undo that wretched privilege.

It's true though, I'm applying for jobs lately and I have to tick the Equal Opportunities forms - White, British, Heterosexual, No Disabilities. On the surface it's like value plain white sliced bread, isn't it? I don't feel those few criteria represent the freak I really am, but I understand why companies want to monitor these criteria and don't mind giving the information. I'm mature enough to know that these things don't make up my whole personality. They're also not the only ways in which one can be privileged or disadvantaged - childhood abuse is in fact one of the biggest factors which shapes how the rest of your life is going to go. That's another problem with these so-called intersectional feminists - they're not intersectional enough, they only concentrate on the areas that advantage them and their mates.

@WinterTrees

TBF David Starkey is excessively unpleasant and I found it uncomfortable to watch him standing over Laurie Penny and jabbing his finger in her face while telling her she was unreasonable in expecting to be paid for her work.

But the reason he did that is because he read her as a woman, and felt she was above herself and needed to be put in her place.

Her non-binary identity did not protect her from that. And yet she still can't see who is really marginalised and oppressed?

I'm not sure that she was non-binary in 2012...

But, yes, he read her as a young, privileged woman (which is accurate) which is why he acted as he did.

Although to be fair, she wasn't just expecting to be paid for her work, which is fair enough, she was trying to charge a tiny organisation more than they could pay, then tried to spin the story that she did this as some sort of double-bluff.

@Twitterwhooooo

What strikes me about the panel with David Starkey and her Twitter exchanges with Julie Bindel and JK Rowling is that for someone who has worked in the media for decades, Laurie has an extraordinary lack of awareness about how to communicate in the public domain.

I'm certainly no DS apologist, but she must have prepared that speech attacking him - how did she THINK he might respond?

Ditto, Tweeting. I know that you can Tweet very quickly without much thought, but for someone in the public eye, why DOESN'T she put any thought in to how her Tweets might land?

Her attempts to play the victim NEVER work out how she wants them to, but she persists in playing the same record over and over again.

I've only been aware of her lately but she does seem to get into a right flap. Jameela Jamil makes me absolutely cringe whenever I see her on a talk show. She's just so obviously uncomfortable in her own skin, it makes me uncomfortable watching it. She tries so hard to sound relatable, so desperate to convince. They both seem incredibly immature, like they've been applauded for spouting their shite for such long time so whenever they're challenged by someone outside of their circle they just don't know how to handle it.