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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Maya Forstater hearing starts Monday

999 replies

MForstater · 06/03/2022 15:28

Hi all,

Thank you so much for all your support: emotional, intellectual, financial, spiritual(!) reading the Mumsnet feminism board is where this all started for me!

The case starts tomorrow.

It is all online. If you want to watch you need to email the tribunal for a log in to [email protected]

It kicks off at 10am - the first bit will be "admin" between the judges and the lawyers working out the timings, issues and any reporting restrictions Hmm.

Once that is all sorted the judge and the panel will go away to read (probably for the rest of Monday and all of Tuesday)

I will most likely give evidence Wednesday and Thursday.

@tribunaltweets will be tweeting the whole thing (assuming they get permission from the judge)

Links to papers will go up throughout the case at www.hiyamaya.net.

Any other questions I am happy to answer them (apart from the ones where I have to say "that is for the tribunal to hear"...)

I have made a spectators guide with FAQs etc here

Lots of love

Maya

OP posts:
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5
Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/03/2022 18:23

The thing is, you run into big trouble as soon as you start to list what is thought of as masculine or feminine.

Which is why at that point, for TRAs and their friends it's suddenly very "complicated" and would "require an essay" and "it's nuanced". They know what they are doing is sexism and misogyny. Don't ever give them a pass.

nauticant · 14/03/2022 18:24

Although it was a day of bizarre testimony from CGD, for example that CGD accepts anyone self-identifying as another race so long as this is done sincerely, this alone will not guarantee a win for Maya. I'm not sure how much of an obstacle there is over the tribunal accepting that Maya had the status of being an employee, and as we've seen before, in some contexts someone being offended over an asserted identity is given an inordinate amount of weight.

The win today for me was seeing gender identity ideology examined in the non-safe space of legal proceedings and watching it turn into an incoherent mess where even its supporters struggle to express what it means.

Artichokeleaves · 14/03/2022 18:25

"Well, we were just following best practice, as advised by..."

...a political lobby with a highly partisan and controversial agenda, known to misrepresent the law and present their desired outcome as achieved, legally binding fact, and no we couldn't be buggered to do any due diligence like googling to see if any of them were actually qualified to advise on Equality Policy for all nine characteristics or had any training in safeguarding or what an impact assessment was, or if anyone training us has a presence on social media that should be taken into account before trusting them.

No, I'm not signing off on that risk assessment. That's never going to fly in a court room.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 14/03/2022 18:33

Catching up on the tweets of Ben Coopers cross examination of Luke E. It’s glorious - especially the basic philosophical points being made. Luke avers that ‘identity is reality’ and we cannot disagree with someone’s reality. But then BC points out that Luke doesn’t believe that Rachel Dolezal is black - so disbelieving some peoples reality is OK? Luke relies heavily on ‘it’s really really offensive’ without being able to explain why a white person identifying as black is offensive and hence we can disbelieve them, but a man identifying as a woman isn’t offensive at all, must always be believed, and disagreeing is bigotry.

InvisibleDragon · 14/03/2022 18:39

nauticant
I'm also worried about this. I don't think that it's clear that Maya was a de facto employee and I don't understand how much that matters. It looks like CGD also went out of their way to trash her after she left, which may have prevented her getting another contract, which may also be important?

nauticant · 14/03/2022 18:48

and I don't understand how much that matters

Earlier on when I was thinking about this I couldn't see much of a difference between overt discrimination against someone having the explicit status of being an employee and against someone having a status like Maya's. I would have thought that for discriminating against someone in a workplace the discrimination is the key issue. But I've seen plenty of times before that when I assume what would make sense in an area that is outside my experience, I come a cropper.

rabbitwoman · 14/03/2022 18:51

I thought that a tribunal would not even go ahead if the employment status did not reach legal criteria - certainly when I had experience of a tribunal someone had a look through the form and made sure it reached the minimum criteria before it went forward to a full tribunal.

Does that not happen any more?

To be honest, if the judge was at all frightened of a pike on from any side that would be an easy way out - but then, how did the case make it to tribunal at all?

A lot like the keira bell case in the end - pretty much the judge said it should not have been heard at a judicial review.... But then why was it allowed to get so far?

However, the keira bell case has still changed everything round the world - so will maya, no matter what!!!

SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 14/03/2022 18:58

@InvisibleDragon

nauticant I'm also worried about this. I don't think that it's clear that Maya was a de facto employee and I don't understand how much that matters. It looks like CGD also went out of their way to trash her after she left, which may have prevented her getting another contract, which may also be important?
Maya's opening post has a link to her FAQs doc, which says (I've cut and pasted):

How can you claim employment discrimination if your contract was not renewed?

I was a Visiting Fellow at the Center for Global Development (CGD) from November 2016 with a series of consultancy contracts and the expectation of an ongoing relationship. How this this relationship ended will be something for the tribunal to consider in detail.

The Equality Act 2010 protects you against discrimination and harassment as an employee, or as a person with an agreement personally to perform work for an employer (if you are not acting as self-employed professional providing services to a client or customer). Ex-employees and people seeking employment are also protected.

Datun · 14/03/2022 19:15

Just catching up, that chap could not be more incoherent If his life depended on it.

It's offensive to compare it to Rachel Dolezal but Rachel Dolezal's identity trumps everything?

nauticant · 14/03/2022 19:20

No, because Rachel Dolezal's self-identity, according to something Luke Easley had read, was not a sincerely held belief. Therefore, she hadn't become black but rather was still white.

You have to believe sincerely, or to put it another way, to have faith, for something to manifest itself into reality.

Although gender identity ideology makes no sense when rationally examined, when considered as a religion it is all far more comprehensible.

OvaHere · 14/03/2022 19:27

@nauticant

No, because Rachel Dolezal's self-identity, according to something Luke Easley had read, was not a sincerely held belief. Therefore, she hadn't become black but rather was still white.

You have to believe sincerely, or to put it another way, to have faith, for something to manifest itself into reality.

Although gender identity ideology makes no sense when rationally examined, when considered as a religion it is all far more comprehensible.

So transubstantiation then?
WeeBisom · 14/03/2022 19:29

How do we know when someone holds sincere beliefs about their identity, especially when there is no criteria which tells us whether a belief is sincere or not? If a trans man decides to become pregnant, does this mean they aren't sincere about being a man? And there's been a lot of talk about the gender fluid Pips Bunce. Couldn't one argue that his vacillation between a male and female gender identity is a sign of insincerity?

nauticant · 14/03/2022 19:35

Some people's sincerely held beliefs have to be respected and validated, no questions asked. Other people's sincerely held beliefs are offensive and expressing them means those people can be punished.

I guess some are lucky to find themselves in the first group and others are unlucky to find themselves in the second group. As time passes it's becoming easier to predict into which group any particular person will be categorised.

Datun · 14/03/2022 19:37

@nauticant

No, because Rachel Dolezal's self-identity, according to something Luke Easley had read, was not a sincerely held belief. Therefore, she hadn't become black but rather was still white.

You have to believe sincerely, or to put it another way, to have faith, for something to manifest itself into reality.

Although gender identity ideology makes no sense when rationally examined, when considered as a religion it is all far more comprehensible.

Got it.

So someone like Pips Bunce, who has a sincerely held belief that he/she alternates between being a woman and being a man is okay? Because pips actually believes it? So it's not a delusion?

What is the difference between a sincerely held belief which is obviously a complete departure from reality, and a delusion?

And what is the difference between a person who says something that is obviously not true, and someone who says it's true because they believe it, whether they do or not?

I mean we all know that it's a completely incoherent and irrational ideology that relies on a belief system, but it's rather validating to see it explained like that in a tribunal.

TheCurrywurstPrion · 14/03/2022 20:10

@WeeBisom

As someone who identifies as a corpse, I'm incredibly offended by LE's corpsephobia.
Even as a corpse, WeeBisom, I bet you’d still have a sex, so sex is clearly superior to gender identity as it survives death.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/03/2022 20:17

I think it's probably the case that given the circles the CGD execs move in they would rather be seen to be doing the right thing according to their DIE commissar and Standing Up Against Transphobia, even if they have to pay out to one strange woman from TERF Island. They made sure their staff weren't Unsafe.

That was my thought too as to how they may be viewing it. We will see how it goes, I guess.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/03/2022 20:29

Philip/Pippa Bunce, for those not familiar:

www.diogo-duarte.com/pips

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 14/03/2022 21:06

I would be interested to hear more about how we judge whether someone's belief is 'sincerely held' or not.

Rachel's apparently wasn't but for no clear reason. She did not want to be 'outed' but many trans people want to 'pass' which is about not being 'outed' either publically or in people's minds. There is no suggestion that trans people who want to 'pass' are not sincere, so this clearly is not the reason for judging Rachel as insincere? So what was? And where are these written down as clearly we are all going to need to be judging whether someone is sincere or not given that identifying as a woman is now a clear path to be misused by some men with malintent as well as those who are sincere.

Deliriumoftheendless · 14/03/2022 21:33

I think Rachel Dolezal’s main mistake was being born a white woman- therefore dismissible.

Signalbox · 14/03/2022 22:37

No, because Rachel Dolezal's self-identity, according to something Luke Easley had read, was not a sincerely held belief. Therefore, she hadn't become black but rather was still white.

So in theory Luke does believe that a person who was observed white at birth can be trans black so long as it is a sincerely held belief.

Datun · 14/03/2022 23:02

@Signalbox

No, because Rachel Dolezal's self-identity, according to something Luke Easley had read, was not a sincerely held belief. Therefore, she hadn't become black but rather was still white.

So in theory Luke does believe that a person who was observed white at birth can be trans black so long as it is a sincerely held belief.

It must be that if the person sincerely believes it, it's not so much that they are it, but that belief is the thing that counts.

Like that man who went round university campuses and had students agreeing that he was a 5 foot 3 Chinese woman - as long as he said he was.

Redshoeblueshoe · 14/03/2022 23:03

I had to laugh at dear old Luke continually saying THAT'S OFFENSIVE !
How the fuck does he think women feel ?

BettyFilous · 14/03/2022 23:46

@OvaHere

It's the best thing I've watched in a long time. Perhaps there will be a mini series

Benedict Cumberbatch as Ben Cooper? Any other suggestions?

Alex Kingston as Maya. (Still catching up, so someone else may have beaten me to it.)
DomesticatedZombie · 15/03/2022 07:49

Even as a corpse, WeeBisom, I bet you’d still have a sex

Shock omg I thought that was illegal

WearyLady · 15/03/2022 08:45

I realise this question may already have been answered but the thread is now so long, it's hard to find the details. I'd like to view the proceedings online. Maya's first posting says you just need to email to request access. I have a few questions:
What is the email address to be used?
Is it necessary to request access to this particular hearing? If so, is there an ID for this hearing?
How long does it take for access to be given?