Will female swimmers ever win Olympic Gold again? Thomas aims for top…

[LunaLights]

Thomas plans to swim in the Olympics.

Thomas, who has applied to law school, now has her sights set on representing Team USA at the 2024 Olympic Games in Paris. But first she’ll swim in the NCAA Women’s Division I Swimming and Diving Championships starting on March 16 in Atlanta, where she’s favoured to win the 200 and 500-yard freestyle events.

www.news.com.au/sport/sports-life/im-not-a-man-transgender-swimmer-lia-thomas-pushes-back-against-critics/news-story/5a762ebbd6577790ffaccc953af76ec2

I look at it as a forming of doping... if you need drugs to compete, its cheating.

If Lia feels happier living what they perceive to be as a woman, that is their business. But doesn't mean they have to expect everyone else to believe it.

I want Lia to go to the Olympic. What better way to spotlight the issue? If Lia wins Olympic gold (as opposed to that middle aged weightlifter whose name I forget who wasn’t even any good) it’ll really draw attention to the issue.

Obviously I understand how unfair it would be to the women who wouldn’t win their rightful places, but maybe it would lead to a change that would benefit all women in sport.

@JellySaurus

Sports is divided according to physiological categories, not belief categories. There is no more reason to create categories for athletes according to their gender beliefs than there is to create categories according to their other beliefs.

The medical treatment for transition does affect performance so I think an additional category would be necessary. It might also help with how to enable DSD competitors to compete fairly (not that they would necessarily be in the same category as trans competitors, I'm thinking of a paralympic kind of model)

I can only hope that LT is the person that breaks this wide open and sporting bodies see sense. We need more of these articles to spread the word.

If LT is allowed to swim in the worlds or Olympics then it’s game over for women’s swimming. No more inspirational women swimmers such as Sharon Davis, Becky Adlington, Missy Franklin’s, Katie Ledecky or Ariarne Titmus - to name a few.

In particular, I can’t see the Australians accepting this. Training to be an elite athlete and swimming is brutal. Someone high up needs to do something and quickly.

Lastly I am hoping LT will not be allowed to compete in the women’s. If they can’t compete at this level then trans should not be competing at any level in their chosen gender but in a separate category for those who use drugs or by their biological sex.

The medical treatment for transition does affect performance so I think an additional category would be necessary.

Then maybe they need to make a choice between their sport and their gender belief. Like Bruce/Caitlin Genner, for example. Like most people in life have to make choices what they will sacrifice to achieve their dream. Only the rest of us don't get to choose what others will sacrifice in order for us to achieve our dreams.

@WarriorN

If lia gets to the Olympics, this will be what demonstrates how unfair it is.

The physicality can't be ignored.

Laurel Hubbard competed at the 2020 Olympics.

The difference was Hubbard was middle aged & out of condition (don’t get me wrong, Hubbard should never have been there) whereas Thomas is in peak condition & would wipe the floor with the competition.

The medical treatment for transition does affect performance so I think an additional category would be necessary.
I think it unlikely that there would be enough people in each category to make it worthwhile as a competition but, by all means, if trans people want to organize such a thing I have no objections. They don't get to mess up women's chance of competing fairly though. I really don't see how anybody can think that is right.

JellySaurus
As usual, women lose out. Or, in this context, perhaps I should say females lose out.

So transgender males are provided for, but not transgender females. Where would they compete?

Assuming a sex-based female category and an "open" category, I'm not sure trans men lose out more than trans women. A trans man taking testosterone could presumably compete in the open category just at a lower level. Similarly a trans woman taking oestrogen will lose (some) speed and strength so will take a performance hit in the open category. Both trans men and trans women need to make similar choices about continuing with high-level sport or physical transition.

Where I think there is a difference is safety in contact sports. I don't believe a trans man could play safely on a men's rugby team for example. And that risk only gets larger at less elite levels where players are more likely to (accidentally) make risky plays that cause injury to others.

@JellySaurus

Sports is divided according to physiological categories, not belief categories. There is no more reason to create categories for athletes according to their gender beliefs than there is to create categories according to their other beliefs.

It's not anymore as evidenced by the biological males in the 'female' category. I agree that no-one has said why we would need to divide sport by you affiliation with poorly defined concepts of 'gender'.

I do find it strange that my DD can play an age group down in Mini Rugby (so she can play U8 not U9) for her safety as shes smaller and lighter than the boys, yet some people can't see the difference between adults. Its also acknowledged she needs separate changing facilities.
This is children pre puberty. In a few years she will have to play in a girls team... again for safety.

The photos of LT in Penn team swimming costume are very revealing because a) next to female teammates LT is wildly at an advantage physically and b) LT’s physique in the costume makes it clear their costume was not designed for that body type - they’ve literally struggled to find a costume big enough (if it fitted like that on a natal female it would be practically indecent as the straps/chest aren’t sitting in the right place).

I assume that in the USA team there will be plenty of money to overcome that issue but even so on the world’s stage it will be shocking to see a male body in a female race.

I think everyone should be free to do what they want with their own bodies and make choices in their lives but then you have to accept your choices have consequences- which in this case should be giving up competition swimming.

Hope Lia gets to the Olympics; show this shitshow for what it is.

Laurel Hubbard should have been enough though tbh.

@Zerogravity

If they were seeking specific LGBT groups or adding to mixed sex groups (with clear rules) there’s a clear precedent. I think you are mixing up different things. We don't have LGBT teams competing in high-level competitions because there is no need. Being gay has nothing to do with athletic ability, sex does. If people want to be on a LGBT for social reasons that is up to them. Paralympics and age categories are all to enable fair conditions. You can't expect 6 year old football players to play against grown men or wheelchair-using basketball players to play competitively against able-bodies ones. Gender identity is totally different. It has no clear definition, not everyone has one, nobody can see it or measure it, it has no bearing on your ability to do sport. In short, it has no place in defining sporting categories.

Yeah maybe I wasn’t clear. The precedent is set for them to have their own specific groups or competitions to encourage participation but NOT to takeover other specific groups and categories.

Just linking this because towards the end it has some really powerful posts from an ex competitive college swimmer. The video is powerful too, of course.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4493512-A-report-from-a-mother-of-a-swimmer-USA

@OperationDessertStorm

But we do already have groups specifically to encourage people from different communities ie LGBT or Muslim specific football teams, Paralympics to highlight disabled inclusion in sport, under 12s or over 35s teams to allow for fairness and increased participation of different age groups. If they were seeking specific LGBT groups or adding to mixed sex groups (with clear rules) there’s a clear precedent.

What we don’t do is completely remove a (protected attribute) category for a disadvantaged group because of the emergence of another disadvantaged group.

LGBT categories at the Olympics or in sport is a horrific idea idea. LGBT rugby team - no problem. Separating LGB To compete only against each other? Are you mad?

Your sexuality does not give you an advantage in sports. A man competing in the woman's sports has a huge advantage. Leave the LGB out of it. This is purely a T issue snd a TW issue at that.

@WouldIwasShookspeared

It's amazing how many average male competitors realise they are actually women and go on to win medals. I wonder why sport attracts such a large number of people trapped in the wrong, non winning, bodies. Someone should research that.

There are also apparently more people in elite sport with DSD than the distribution curve in the general population would predict . Even more strangely they are clustered around certain sports. Statistics eh!

@TheGreatATuin

Lia is an absolute boon for our side. The US is far behind on the gender debate. The higher Lia flies, along with all the sporting bodies shutting down discussion about it, the faster the US will peak. Laurel Hubbard was bad, but Hubbard was also middle aged and in a far more over looked sport in NZ. I hate to say it but I suspect Lia might help turn the tide in the US faster than any feminist voice might ever do.

We keep thinking that, wondering when we're going to get an 'I'm Spartacus' moment from the spectators, but they just sit there like the dog in the house on fire saying 'this is fine'. The current Adidas advert actually celebrates a towering 6'4" transwoman competing against women in women's volleyball.

We keep thinking that, wondering when we're going to get an 'I'm Spartacus' moment from the spectators, but they just sit there like the dog in the house on fire saying 'this is fine'. The current Adidas advert actually celebrates a towering 6'4" transwoman competing against women in women's volleyball.

Indeed. I'm fast believing there will be no moment when the light bulb goes on.

@JackieWeaversZoomAc

The problem with many of these suggestions is TW don't want separate competitions. They want to compete with women and be in women spaces. Thomas wants to get his dick out in the womens changing room. And win races against women. And how women feel about that doesn't matter.

Funny isn’t it, the one thing transwomen don’t want to claim for themselves from our lives is the misogyny we have to deal with from men. I wonder why that is.

[quote LunaLights]Thomas plans to swim in the Olympics.

Thomas, who has applied to law school, now has her sights set on representing Team USA at the 2024 Olympic Games in Paris. But first she’ll swim in the NCAA Women’s Division I Swimming and Diving Championships starting on March 16 in Atlanta, where she’s favoured to win the 200 and 500-yard freestyle events.

www.news.com.au/sport/sports-life/im-not-a-man-transgender-swimmer-lia-thomas-pushes-back-against-critics/news-story/5a762ebbd6577790ffaccc953af76ec2[/quote]
No, the women may as well quit now.

At least save their dignity and respect, if men are allowed to cheat compete against women it would be best to walk away and the men can play with themselves.

Er no. I didn’t mean LGBT categories at the Olympics. I mean we have numerous different ways to encourage participation in sport in general in normal life and that these things enhance sports competition and inclusion rather than detract from it. This group do have options to get involved in sport if they do what everyone else has had to do and carve out their own space - not carve across everyone else’s.

(I’m glad I tried this out on here and not in real life! Obviously not being clear)

I think, sadly, that they will not compete in the Olympics because activist organisations will see that this will be a complete own goal. I think Lia will have a handy back injury or some such just beforehand, otherwise the world will be laughing when a 6’4” bloke jumps into the pool in a women’s race.