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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does anyone else cringe at the word "diversity"?

281 replies

SunniDelite · 26/02/2022 12:26

I had this email from someone on Crowdfunder...
"I am raising funds for the Lenny Henry Centre for Media Diversity at Birmingham City University.
In the last year, the centre has revealed the racism and prejudice actors face when they go auditions and, for the first time, exposed the lack of gender diversity of sound recordists. We're now building programmes to address this problem. So far, our research has highlighted specific problems for disabled people working in the industry and created more job opportunities for Black people behind the camera. Additionally, we are working with major broadcasters to change how they report on race, gender and disability."
I have no problem with the race and disability part, but what on earth does "lack of gender diversity of sound recordists" mean? That there aren't enough women? or that there aren't enough blue-hairs who can't decide what they are? or there aren't enough transwomen?
It's come to a point where I'm suspicious that any organisation that mentions diversity is a TRA, even if they're talking about hedgehog populations! :)

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/02/2022 15:37

Elaborate?

Because there is something of a pattern of (some) transitioning men behaving in an abusive way to their wife or female partner while they are still in a relationship. You should read up on women's experiences. There are common threads.

TinselAngel · 28/02/2022 15:38

@Lekisa658

Also "trans widow" is a really gross term. Your partner is still alive. That you no longer love them or don't wish to continue your relationship with them doesn't make you a "widow".
Oh my sweet summer child.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/02/2022 15:38

A "dead name" (meaning a name that's no longer in use) isn't the same as a dead person.

It's exactly the same point Confused widow is being used metaphorically like "dead" is.

TinselAngel · 28/02/2022 15:39

Anyway, apologies for the detail. It's not a thread about trans widows.

AKASammyScrounge · 28/02/2022 15:39

@NecessaryScene

For me diversity means a lot more than the single issue. In most places of work it is relevant still because 99% of my managers have been white and not disabled.

Or maybe we don't think having managers that are white, not disabled and have blue hair is going to be an improvement...

The armed forces are being given a day off to contemplate inclusion.(seriously). Boy, are we busted if Putin expands his war. Our armed forces, if woke generals get their way, will be clamouring for safe spaces and checking the ranks for diversity and inclusion.
SamphiretheStickerist · 28/02/2022 15:39

Again, it's so gross to treat trans people this way

But not gross to force a woman to be married to a woman, live in a same sex marriage when that woman married a man, is straight, does not want to remain with the Transwoman he has now become?

Not at all odd to want to divorce before the identity change, before the paperwork becomes more complicated, more expensive, emotionally and financially?

What EXACTLY is wrong with wanting to formally end a marriage before such complications occur?

SamphiretheStickerist · 28/02/2022 15:41

@TinselAngel

Anyway, apologies for the detail. It's not a thread about trans widows.
I shall cease and desist from further exchanges on the matter.

Back to the OP...

Lekisa658 · 28/02/2022 15:41

“Again. You have absolutely no idea what you have leaped into.”

You are the ones who shoehorned the subject in out of nowhere actually.

“I am actually embarrassed for you. You are seemingly bereft of knowledge regarding ongoing court cases, mooted changes to legislation, lobbying, etc etc.”

Afaik, most trans people support no fault divorce, where both of the partners simply go their separate ways when it turns out the cis partner simply isn't attracted to the gender the trans partner is transitioning to.

If your issue is with the laws not allowing for this, take it up with the laws instead of blaming it on "trans activists".

Lekisa658 · 28/02/2022 15:42

“But not gross to force a woman to be married to a woman, live in a same sex marriage when that woman married a man, is straight, does not want to remain with the trans woman [she] has now become?”

See above.

SunniDelite · 28/02/2022 15:42

Sing it! "Look what they've done to my thread, Ma,
Look what they've done to my thread......."
I just take a break to run up a couple of new curtains and it's completely changed subject. Seems like someone's come on here just to poke us with sticks, so I'm just going to turn my back and walk away. :)

OP posts:
LeapYrBaby · 28/02/2022 15:45

I’m reading your email as they want the workforce to be representative of the society they serve. Can’t see an issue with this?

TinselAngel · 28/02/2022 15:46

My question with regards to the modern concept of EDI, is where does it leave the people that are excluded by it, and how can excluding some people in the name of inclusion be justified?

Eg if a conservative Muslim is uncomfortable with his employer celebrating Pride, where does that leave his right to "bring his whole self to work?

Or are we saying it's OK to exclude religious people from some workplaces? If so, how does that fit with the Equality Act?

SamphiretheStickerist · 28/02/2022 15:47

Maybe a name change @SunniDelite?

Don't walk away Renee
They'll only subvert your thread

😃

Lekisa658 · 28/02/2022 15:53

“Eg if a conservative Muslim is uncomfortable with his employer celebrating Pride, where does that leave his right to "bring his whole self to work?

Or are we saying it's OK to exclude religious people from some workplaces? If so, how does that fit with the Equality Act?”

May I ask what your stance on the gay wedding cake case was? It was a big deal a few years back, where a Christian baker refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding, regardless of design.

SamphiretheStickerist · 28/02/2022 15:54

There are a few if those. Some were entirely reasonable, one, iirc, was not.

Define your terms...

TinselAngel · 28/02/2022 15:55

May I ask

No.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/02/2022 15:57

It's like arguing that "gay marriage" is a contradiction of terms because "marriage" is "union between a man and a woman".

Just to pick up on this:

Marriage isn't a material thing. It's a nam we have for a particular kind of legal agreement between two people that is different in time and space. Sex is a material thing. We have scientific tests which can determine it in the womb. We could call it whatever we want but there would still be only two clearly defined reproductive roles, male and female. There isn't a third one.

Lekisa658 · 28/02/2022 16:00

@TinselAngel

May I ask

No.

Um, why not? It's certainly relevant to your question, and would make it easier for me to answer it.
SamphiretheStickerist · 28/02/2022 16:01

What? You were actually going to answer a question?

No....

butnobodytoldme · 28/02/2022 16:04

@SamphiretheStickerist

I received similar, very different work area, and sent back a short reply that included links to the EA2010 and it's guidance. I may have been a little bit more brusque than this, mainly because they acknowledged that women meant 'anyone who identified as a woman' but this is the general gist of it:

Dear ex university of choice.

I am disappointed to hear that you are just now beginning to focus on a 'lack of gender diversity'. If you mean sex based discrimination or lack of females in the sector then you are very late coming to that conclusion. Women have been under represented in all aspects of XX since the role/sector began. For over 100 years the sector has been male dominated and work at increasing female participation is long overdue.

If, however, you mean 'gender' and not sex, chromosomal, biological, then I will have to disappoint you as not only is it not covered in law as a protected characteristic, see links provided, but I personally dislike the term, and all of it's current meanings. I am female by dint of biology rather than ideology and much of the difficulty I have experienced finding work in XX sector has been because of outmoded perceptions of that biology.

I could happily support any drive to increase the number if women considering XX as a career. If this is what you mean, the advancement of biological females, then please, do let me know how I can help.

Perfect. Thank you. As the word 'diverse' has now come to mean the opposite, would the word 'representative' be a good substitute? I'm particularly keen on the openly ignored 'Equalities' of Age and Disability. But also as others remark, the 'deemed non-existent.' For example, not the 'correctly' homeless but the 'Hidden Homeless'; a far, far greater number. Millions, almost none officially recorded.

Or, the Old but not as the fantasised stereotype has it, attended by adoring family, nor living in care homes or nursing homes, Nor owning their own homes nor having secure-for life council tenancies.

What of those who don't 'refuse' to go for a brisk daily run, but (again, in their never-mentioned millions) are physically unable to do such tricks?

We certainly don't find a representative number of physically attractive people of all ages, particularly women. Nor of people who are carers for adults at home (predominantly women)

We never hear about those, again numbering millions, who are Poor But Not Claimants. It s people of all ages and for all reasons, including 2 million extremely old, Silent Generation, on less than £100 old State Pension, but not even getting Pension Credit

Who in the media has ever even mentioned the vast numbers of people (predominantly women) who are subjected to every type of abuse, under the roof where they must live, and cannot escape; but whose abuse counts, as they do, for nothing, because the abuser is an incorrectly compliant box ticker for them to qualify for D.V. protection? They will normally be the Most helpless, the Most trapped, and the Least able to simply pick up a bag and go somewhere else to live.

Dump diversity in faviour of representation, and see the current yellers represented and mentioned in proportion, i.e. hardly at all. Disability Discrimination [and Age Hate] are "worse than Racism" said Sir Trevor Phillips while Chair of Equalities.

A huge re-think would result from cursory re-balance of what interests men and what interests women.. Boys and men largely tend to, (and are overwhelmingly socialised to) love competition. It's sublimated fighting. Delete from broadcast shedules everything aggressive or competitive and there would be virtually nothing left. (Even demonstrating cooking in the pleasant, helpful, Delia way was chucked out in favour of making every single thing part of a competition) At least equally arguably, if one person's idea of pleasure is taking delight in seeing a great many other people sad, that is not the best or only way to behave.

(P.S. Has anyone noticed Pip and Posy, a gentle little children's programme where every delightful episode quietly encourages emotional consideration, care of others and of nature?)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/02/2022 16:04

May I ask what your stance on the gay wedding cake case was? It was a big deal a few years back, where a Christian baker refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding, regardless of design.

What was your stance? I don't remember this case, I remember the one where the gay couple asked the baker to make a cake iced with a pro gay marriage message, and the baker refused, and was taken to court and there were several appeals. The gay couple ultimately lost, btw. Because we have freedom of belief, thankfully and can refuse to say something that goes against our beliefs. I think it's arguable either way, but on balance it was right.

You might also want to look up Maya Forstater and her appeal ruling. Disbelief in gender identity falls under the protected characteristic of "belief" in the EA 2010. As does believing we have an innate gender identity. Because, thankfully we have freedom of belief.

Goatsaregreat · 28/02/2022 16:04

Welcome to Mumsnet Lekisa658 Amazing that you found this little corner of the internet peopled by 6 women and a dog (according to some).

There's a lot to learn on here Smile

TinselAngel · 28/02/2022 16:05

Also I was told by an EDI trainer that it was reasonable to expect employees that don't share their employers values on EDI would eventually leave the organisation. I don't see how this kind of ideological cleaning promotes diversity.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/02/2022 16:05

The gay cake case I am referring to:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-59882444

Lekisa658 · 28/02/2022 16:07

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's like arguing that "gay marriage" is a contradiction of terms because "marriage" is "union between a man and a woman".

Just to pick up on this:

Marriage isn't a material thing. It's a nam we have for a particular kind of legal agreement between two people that is different in time and space. Sex is a material thing. We have scientific tests which can determine it in the womb. We could call it whatever we want but there would still be only two clearly defined reproductive roles, male and female. There isn't a third one.

"Marriage", if you choose to define it as a union the purpose of having children, is absolutely based on something material.

And in the same way, we have the social categories of "man" and "woman", which you choose to define strictly around reproductive roles.