Don’t bother applying for a job if you think people can’t change sex, NHS trust tells health official

[MidCenturyClegs]

uk.news.yahoo.com/don-t-bother-applying-job-162233187.html

The wonderful Kate Grimes expressed interest in a non-exec position at the Tavi this year and was told to not waste her time as she holds gender critical beliefs. Peter Daly has been employed. Wow!

The only thing that's being observed is the genitals. The categories are assigned based on what genitals are observed.

The male and female categories?

And the existence of trans people shows that these categories are in fact often rejected.

Ah so you think it's completely by chance who is assigned correctly or not. Why are there so many more "cis people"? And where did the categories come from? Where is this "woman" idea from?

@OldCrone

The one and only thing "cis" implies is that you were designated female at birth, and call yourself a woman.

If you are female and an adult, you are a woman. Not a 'cis woman'. All women are female. 'Transwomen' are male, therefore they are not women.

Nope, you are in no position to impose the label of "woman" on everyone you consider "female", if they do not wish to be designated by that label.

Likewise, you are in no position to restrict anyone from using that label, either.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

And the existence of trans people shows that these categories are in fact often rejected.

Ah so you think it's completely by chance who is assigned correctly or not. Why are there so many more "cis people"? And where did the categories come from? Where is this "woman" idea from?

All questions worthy of an entire essay, which would be a waste of time since you would disregard all of it anyway.

Nope, you are in no position to impose the label of "woman" on everyone you consider "female", if they do not wish to be designated by that label.

We have the right to reject your definition, when it affects our own rights and ability to advocate for ourselves as an oppressed class. Because we don't share your gender-based worldview.

Nope, you are in no position to impose the label of "woman" on everyone you consider "female", if they do not wish to be designated by that label.

Likewise, you are in no position to restrict anyone from using that label, either.

You can call yourself anything you like @Lekisa658. You can call yourself a man, woman, child, donkey, unicorn. Whatever you like.

What you can't do is force other people to believe that you are what you say you are.

And you can't force other people to say they are what you say they are either.

All questions worthy of an entire essay

Well you seem to have the time. If you could answer, why wouldn't you? If it's too "complicated", can you at least understand why people don't buy into your attempt to completely rewrite how we make sense of their world and our biological and social reality as women, and don't take kindly to be told what to think?

The sheer entitlement of trans women to want their own way at the expense of over half the population literally shows they are actually men.

The truth of this movement is always writ large when people come to educate the silly women here.

But a core gender critical belief is that transgender patients should not receive transition care in the first place?

And how many GC women explaining that this isn't true will it take to change your mind on that?

Because it is not what is being said. It is a simplification that obscures what is really being said. Stifles discussion, attempts to ridicule but fails because it is so bloody obvious!

It's like putting an anti-vaxer in charge of distributing vaccines

See. Ludicrous!

“The form of discrimination I support is different from the other forms of discrimination, in that the form of discrimination I support is actually good, because it's the form of discrimination I support. ”

I don't actually support any discrimination though, because I don't think it's a human right to be considered the opposite sex, and I don't actually believe in innate gender identity.

There is no way a male can know that the way they feel is more female than male, because they are simply a male experiencing their own male existence. All they can know is that they don't think they feel like they think a male should feel. All highly subjective and based on sex role stereotypes.

So, getting back to the Tavi...

Heather Brunskell Evans said something on a Stella O Malley pod that caught my attention.

That the Tavi was set up not as part of the NHS but as a private set up based on queer theory. So it has NEVER had an evidence based practice.

And here we are.

I absolutely will 'label' whoever I wish as a woman (or man) just as I will reject those words for those people who do not match my perceptions of those categories.

I would not be aggressive, perhaps I would need to be assertive, most likely I would just ignore such individuals if I could. I will never be told how I may perceive others.

but besides that N O T H I N G should have trans-exclusionary "sex-based" segregation in place.

This is spoken like someone who has very little experience of sex based discrimination. It really shows that you have very little understanding of the axis of oppression that feminists are fighting. I expect that some Ayn Rand will be quoted next. It really is a very ignorant and very idealistic thing to have stated.

“Do we have to believe them when they say they conceived a child naturally?”

Literally no trans woman says this, you've never actually interacted with trans people before (not without barraging them with your ignorant presumptions anyhow), and it really shows.

You are 'almost' correct here.

In fact, we have been told by transitioned males that they will very soon be pregnant and deliver infants. On this very board.

And there are quite a few transitioned males out there having 'pregnancy' glamour shoots where they are indeed being photographed with fake pregnancies. And then there are transitioned males who have joined pregnancy groups, breast feeding groups and even, stillborn support groups. One even stated that they were about to give birth to their stillborn child, and prioritised their needs above the needs of women who needed the group. The women who need these groups are often ejected if they do not go along with these posters.

I want to make clear here that these groups that transitioned males are joining are ones set up by females, for females only. Not for any males despite their needs for support. These were not 'mixed sex' groups.

And are just another single sex space that then disappears and females are left without the support they need.

So.... you are 'almost' correct. But as usual, the 'all or nothing' approach leaves a whole lot of nuance unaccounted for.

And those insisting that they access those spaces meant for females are certainly not 'kind', are they? By anyone's definition.

It's called forcing someone into the closet.

You want to force trans women to conform to the role of a "man", no matter how miserable or suicidal it makes them.

and

The role of a "man". Which is imposed by imposing that label. The role includes "sex-based" labels and "sex-based" segregation.

These are parts of the role, which you militantly uphold.

No. If the word 'man' means any person born male, with the body formed around the production of small gametes (whether this happens or not), then a man can present themselves any way they wish to. They can be as feminine as they want.

Male people cannot be female people ever. I am still waiting to see you back up your assertions on this or another thread about 'science' saying that sex is not binary.

But they can be a male with any personality, any choice of personal style, any employment, any interest.

You really need to stop telling people on this board what your prejudiced view of them is, and engage. Otherwise, start showing some evidence for your own extremist assertions.

In fact, we have been told by transitioned males that they will very soon be pregnant and deliver infants. On this very board.

Oh, I missed this earlier reply. Lekisa missed my point, which was that gay people weren't insisting they were the opposite sex, or that they were able to conceive children naturally. I wasn't thinking of trans people as such, I was thinking of analogous demands gay people could have made.

I was trying to bend their analogies back to some sort of coherence by pointing out that gay "acceptance" simple meant not objecting to them having sex and relationships of someone of the same sex. It did not involve denying the reality of those relationships - pretending they weren't same-sex relationships.

Trans "acceptance" is currently deemed to hinge on denying reality (in a way it did not, say, 20 years ago, and hence received less resistance).

@Lekisa658

“Stereotypes? It's reality.”

Every bigot says this about the stereotypes they believe to be true.

Could you please post the studies and the statistics that show that transitioned males have a reduced level of committing sex crimes at anytime during their transition or after?

Because YOU are calling facts 'stereotypes' with the aim of creating safeguarding protocols that exempt a group of males.

This quote was what you have stated to NecessaryScene's point about transitioned males being included in female prisons. Something we also have evidence of that some of those transitioned males abuse female inmates. But in general cause harm just by being a male in a female prison where those females are forced to live with that male. And for female staff who are also put into positions of harm.

So, these are not stereotypes. These are facts.

Please provide evidence that those males are of less risk to females in any safeguarding situation where males are considered a risk to any female.

Otherwise, you are advocating for any female, whether girl, woman, transitioned female or non-binary to be at risk of harm for your own ideology.

And everyone reading this thread sees that anyway, but here is your chance to actually add something to the discussion.

An evidenced claim.

@fruitbat987

No baby is "designated" anything at birth. The sex of a baby is simply observed.

yes, another bingo call there!.

Appropriation of medical terms from other groups is not a thing to be proud of.

“The form of discrimination I support is different from the other forms of discrimination, in that the form of discrimination I support is actually good, because it's the form of discrimination I support. ”

Oh... nice one!

However, you DO realise that discrimination is not always negative. And that females require discrimination to be enacted for their safety, for fairness in sports, and because sometimes job roles require a female person or a male person in cases when sex matters. Plus, discrimination is also required for situations where one group is being recognised for their achievements, in overcoming past discrimination. Such as for people of a particular ethnicity or race in a particular country. Or for rewarding children for instance. Or for rewarding a person with a disability.

It still doesn't mean that a male should be treated as a female where it counts.

Kevin? Is that you again Kevin?

@Lekisa658

“You have no right to call women 'cis' which implies an acceptance of and identification with gender stereotypes.”

It doesn't.

The one and only thing "cis" implies is that you were designated female at birth, and call yourself a woman.

That's it. Nothing else. There's no any other "implication". Anything else is entirely imagined on your part.

The one and only thing "male" implies is that you are a biological man. That's it. Nothing else. There's no any other "implication". Anything else is entirely imagined on you part.

Ask the 7 billion people on the planet if the categories of male and female are "made up". They seem to have know which bits went where, and which one of them brought the sperm.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion.
Your are NOT entitled to your own facts.

I am neither vaccinated nor unvaccinated. I reject those labels.

Nobody is in a position to impose those labels on me.

I do not wish to be designated by those labels.

Those in favour of cis should note that the label cis reinforces that women need to be identified, but we don't need to be called cis, we just need men not to misappropriate the word women.

If we are forced to be CW, then TW will complain and say TWACW, then women will need another word, perhaps 'real' could be used instead of cis.

Biological sex will never case to exist and so men with dysphoria will always struggle and fail to be women.

They are chasing rainbows to find gold, when rainbows are simply illusions.

I think it is completely apparent that all this poster has emotional reasoning and manipulation.

Maybe it has worked for them before. Maybe they don't even believe it themselves, but have other aims in mind.

I do believe that unless they start backing up their extremist claims with evidence they realise they have no credibility here. They made bold claims that if posted an 'essay' no one would read it.

' All questions worthy of an entire essay, which would be a waste of time since you would disregard all of it anyway. '

This is just another of their unsurprisingly unfounded prejudices about the people on this board. And a clanger too really.

We are quite well known for reading and critiquing 'essays'. Just we are eager to read and dissect studies - what ever they support or not support. It is those from other social media platforms that have spread the illusion that MNers are just 'silly mummies', just they feed the illusion that MN feminist board regulars are 'ignorant bigots'.

In fact, critiquing essays/studies/research is what some poster's do professionally. But that is a very inconvenience truth.

Or, is it that some posters don't really have anything too add except their constant prejudiced posts that use false comparators and false analogies. That they realise that any longer posts that proffer nuanced thinking would not actually stand up to scrutiny and would lack statistics and evidence.

That is all they have.

Name calling, false analogies, false comparators, misrepresenting feminist perspective (and maybe even trans people's perspective from what we are assured by other trans people), demonisation and monstering.

I do hope they will return with some evidence to back up their endlessly empty claims. It will make for something out of the usual.

But I expect we will remain disappointed.