Don’t bother applying for a job if you think people can’t change sex, NHS trust tells health official

[MidCenturyClegs]

uk.news.yahoo.com/don-t-bother-applying-job-162233187.html

The wonderful Kate Grimes expressed interest in a non-exec position at the Tavi this year and was told to not waste her time as she holds gender critical beliefs. Peter Daly has been employed. Wow!

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

I've been through this on this forum before, and I'm not doing it again. The evidence is accepted by all major psychiatric and medical bodies, and there is no point in me doing 101 for you

What? You said there is a full range of gender critical beliefs

I am asking what they are

I’m not asking for you to argue that gender identity exists

I pointed you at an article in which she expressed most of the usual talking points

In addition, on her twitter feed you can see she say trans women are men, trans women can't be lesbians, opposing trans women in shop changing rooms, defending conversion therapy, suggesting that transgender people are in fact "confused" gay people. Do I need to go on?

In addition, on her twitter feed you can see she say trans women are men, trans women can't be lesbians, opposing trans women in shop changing rooms, defending conversion therapy, suggesting that transgender people are in fact "confused" gay people. Do I need to go on?

Actually, please do point to the studies that state categorically that all people who are trans think the same way.

You are right, DadJoke we have been around and around this before over different thread with you.

YOU, DadJoke, you have the belief that all trans people should follow what YOU personally believe.

Are you now telling us that all those other trans people who don't believe that transitioned males are females or women, or transitioned females are males or men. That believe that same 'sex' attraction is just that and irrelevant to gender. That transitioned males should not have access to female single sex spaces.

Do you actually listen to yourself DadJoke? Do you honestly think that all trans people believe the same things as you and that you are the designated spokesperson for trans people as a whole?

Please copy where they defend 'conversion therapy'? What do YOU call conversion therapy? And are you again stating (as I believe you have in the past) that treatment for mental health and other comorbidities before transition is 'conversion therapy'? Because that would be you going against the medical recommendations across the world for best trans health care.

And also clarify, do you think that clinicians who have identified that some homophobic parents are pressuring or manipulating their child to transition for their own purposes are lying? And do you think that clinicians reporting that some people who wish to transition do so out of homophobia? Do you deny that in some countries that this happens? Can you just as confidently deny that it doesn't happen in the UK? And then can you confidently tell us that the detransitioners who has stated that this played a part in their transition (and medical and surgical transition at that) are mistaken?

I am very eager to see how you deflect, or twist this. Because so far you have done nothing to support your claims except a bit of emotional manipulation and assurances that you are right using weak and irrelevant analogies.

Right so you don’t know what the full range of GC beliefs are

Just what someone said on twitter

Awesome

I pointed you at an article in which she expressed most of the usual talking points

Archive link for anyone who can't see the article.
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20210611091017/www.hsj.co.uk/workforce/working-with-stonewall-is-no-longer-compatible-with-nhs-values/7030259.article" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20210611091017/www.hsj.co.uk/workforce/working-with-stonewall-is-no-longer-compatible-with-nhs-values/7030259.article

It's an excellent article clearly stating the problems with nodding along with the TWAW narrative.

In addition, on her twitter feed you can see she say trans women are men,

Well, they are, aren't they? In order to be a transwomen you have to be male. An adult human male is a man, therefore transwomen are men.

trans women can't be lesbians,

Of course they can't. In order to be a lesbian you have to be a woman (adult human female) and transwomen are male. Also (do I have to state the obvious?) lesbians don't have penises.

opposing trans women in shop changing rooms,

No problem with them in the men's changing rooms along with all the other penis people.

defending conversion therapy,

Define what you mean by conversion therapy when discussing transgender people.

suggesting that transgender people are in fact "confused" gay people.

Many young lesbians who identify as trans seem to fit this description. Of course it doesn't apply to the middle aged heterosexual males who make up the other large cohort of trans people.

I want a definition of GC

I really don’t think its too much to ask

@Helleofabore

My "claim" is that it's prefectly reasonable for Tavistock not to appoint someone to be in charge of a gender identity clinic who doesn't think trans women are women and all the other stuff that goes with it.

I listed some gender critical beliefs which she shares because I was asked to. I'm addressing the OP. That's it.

I am under no obligation to discuss with you, on this thread, what my views on GC feminism are. So, stop pushing. You moving the goalposts around and putting words in my mouth will make no difference.

I think getting someone so entrenched in their belief that they speak for all trans people to do anything more than the weak deflection they have already attempted is very slim.

Imagine believing that the beliefs they have are what ALL trans people believe. And so therefore ONLY people also holding those beliefs can deliver high quality care.

For gender dysphoria.

So very enlightening to readers. Thanks djoke.

I am not putting words in your mouth. I am asking for clarification.

Because you seem to be under the illusion that you are a spokesperson for all trans people and that some trans people actually don’t agree with you.

So tell us exactly why you are using those arguments, that some trans people also hold, as to why a person should not hold a senior role at the Tavistock. An NHS trust. Not a ‘trans’ lobby group. An NHS Trust.

Frankly I couldn’t give a toss if you answer. Your lack of logic, your lack of anything but emotive reasoning says it all. It is not credible and it is ideologically based.

Oops

Because you seem to be under the illusion that you are a spokesperson for all trans people and that some trans people actually don’t agree with you.

Is

Because you seem to be under the illusion that you are a spokesperson for all trans people and ignore that some trans people actually don’t agree with you.

You moving the goalposts around

And no one is moving any goalposts. We are responding to your statements. Statements you have made.

That you cannot/decline to answer questions that relate to your statements is your own issue. And on this thread, probably an own goal really.

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

I want a definition of GC

I really don’t think its too much to ask

I didn't offer to define GC for you.

I said she exhibited gender critical views, pointed you at an article she wrote in which she explained them, and then listed a bunch more from her social media feed. She says she's gender critical.

That serves my point - it's reasonable for Tavistock not to employ someone who doesn't believe that the transgender patients they serve in the gender identity clinic have a pseudo-religious belief.

By all means argue the point, but you'll have to find a definition of gender critical elsewhere - perhaps start a thread on it?

That serves my point - it's reasonable for Tavistock not to employ someone who doesn't believe that the transgender patients they serve in the gender identity clinic have a pseudo-religious belief.

If believing a man is a woman if he says he is isn't a pseudo-religious belief, what is it? It's certainly not a fact.

What is it that you believe makes someone transgender? It's not based on science, therefore it's a belief system which bears a lot of similarity to a religious belief.

My son went to the Tavistock, at the time he had gender dysphoria. Thank fuck that there was at least one person there who didn’t immediately think ‘this boy is actually a girl and we must make him into one ASAP’. No, he talked to and counselled my son, helped him to recognise his internalised homophobia and actually helped him.

He saved my son from a life of medicalised misery, 3 years later and he is at university, dating boys and girls and being happily bisexual. I will always be grateful to that GIDS employee, and they could do with many more like him. Especially as he left at about the same time my son was discharged.

@OldCrone

That serves my point - it's reasonable for Tavistock not to employ someone who doesn't believe that the transgender patients they serve in the gender identity clinic have a pseudo-religious belief.

If believing a man is a woman if he says he is isn't a pseudo-religious belief, what is it? It's certainly not a fact.

What is it that you believe makes someone transgender? It's not based on science, therefore it's a belief system which bears a lot of similarity to a religious belief.

They don't believe "men are women", they believe that trans women are women and trans men are men.

It's a view that the NHS and Tavistock share, and the science of gender identity is well-established and accepted by psychiatric and medical bodies. But, regardless of whether you think it's a religious belief or not, it's what Tavistock and the NHS believe that matters.

If you need to read a 101on it, I recommend an Introduction to Behavioral Science in Medicine. I'm not interested in arguing it on this thread.

they believe that trans women are women and trans men are men.

It's a view that the NHS and Tavistock share

Good god, is this true? Can you show me where the NHS says that males are females and females are males, please?

I didn't offer to define GC for you

I realise that now 😩

If you need to read a 101on it, I recommend an Introduction to Behavioral Science in Medicine. I'm not interested in arguing it on this thread.

Of course you're not. It is utter tripe.

They don't believe "men are women", they believe that trans women are women and trans men are men

No, they don't.

They may pretend to, but that is only because they are petrified of losing their jobs.

Nobody really thinks this, not even you.

They don't believe "men are women", they believe that trans women are women

There is zero difference.

They don't believe "men are women", they believe that trans women are women and trans men are men.

What is the definition of a transwoman?

Because you seem to think that only those who fully believe in the same things as their patients and the people they serve are the best providers of health care. And you are fundamentally wrong on that.

They may be the ones inclined to simply give a patient what that patient wants... is that appropriate? No. But that is exactly where your scenario leads to. And I get it. It is straight out of that crazy manifesto that declared that transpeople get everything they want and can even experiment on themselves.

YY.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

They don't believe "men are women", they believe that trans women are women

There is zero difference.

I always get confused by this bit

If trans women are women what does the trans bit refer to

it's what Tavistock and the NHS believe

"The NHS" employs over a million people, some of them are regular posters in FWR. There is no one belief. I expect most NHS staff are not really thinking about it all that much.

risefromyourgrave

. It sounds like your son got the balanced care he needed.

My son went to the Tavistock, at the time he had gender dysphoria. Thank fuck that there was at least one person there who didn’t immediately think ‘this boy is actually a girl and we must make him into one ASAP’. No, he talked to and counselled my son, helped him to recognise his internalised homophobia and actually helped him.

He saved my son from a life of medicalised misery, 3 years later and he is at university, dating boys and girls and being happily bisexual. I will always be grateful to that GIDS employee, and they could do with many more like him. Especially as he left at about the same time my son was discharged.

That's great to hear