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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Don’t bother applying for a job if you think people can’t change sex, NHS trust tells health official

532 replies

MidCenturyClegs · 25/02/2022 07:29

uk.news.yahoo.com/don-t-bother-applying-job-162233187.html

The wonderful Kate Grimes expressed interest in a non-exec position at the Tavi this year and was told to not waste her time as she holds gender critical beliefs. Peter Daly has been employed. Wow!

OP posts:
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 02/03/2022 11:00

I really wish the Scottish Government would consider some science tomorrow, @Helleofabore.

Helleofabore · 02/03/2022 11:16

I agree viv

ScreamingMeMe · 02/03/2022 13:05

They asserted that races were plainly different - just as, indeed, vaginas were different to penises, one might say.

Penises and vaginas are different though. So are men and women. Are you saying they are not? Hmm

ScreamingMeMe · 02/03/2022 13:13

This thread turned very, very weird.

DadJoke · 02/03/2022 17:07

She doesn't think trans women are women, and trots out the usual gender critical screed. It's entirely understandable why Tavistock wouldn't employ someone like this.

DomesticatedZombie · 02/03/2022 17:14

But transwomen aren't women.

Helleofabore · 02/03/2022 17:18

DadJoke

Is it actually beyond a trans activist's understanding that a high standard of trans health does not have to involve a person in a leadership position believing that people can change sex?

That delivering the best health care involves making sure that balance is sought and that safeguarding is maintained?

That many people can do a job without fully believing an ideological stance that the organisation takes and that their very presence means that it is a better organisation for it?

or is it simply that trans activists can only support 'pure' organisations.

Do you realise that currently clinicians and other staff already hold the view that a person does not change sex? And that transitioned males are not females and are not women, but are transitioned males who deserve the best health care to assist them with their dysphoria?

Waitwhat23 · 02/03/2022 17:33

The 'usual gender critical screed' being that human beings cannot change sex?

I find it worrying that a medical establishment hires people who believe that human beings can change sex as it indicates a worrying lack of understanding of human biology and a lack of critical thinking skills in the face of a mass societal delusion.

As hellebore says above 'Do you realise that currently clinicians and other staff already hold the view that a person does not change sex? And that transitioned males are not females and are not women, but are transitioned males who deserve the best health care to assist them with their dysphoria?'

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 02/03/2022 17:45

Do you realise that currently clinicians and other staff already hold the view that a person does not change sex? And that transitioned males are not females and are not women, but are transitioned males who deserve the best health care to assist them with their dysphoria

Spot on

NoToLandfill · 02/03/2022 18:10

Well it's still unadulterated shite being spouted. Last I heard biology was a science. Determined by the scientific method. Fine if you want to live in 1500s. I'll stay in 2022 thanks.

Yousuns are utterly deluded. What a strange world you inhabit.

Helleofabore · 02/03/2022 18:47

I also want to point out that as usual from DadJoke there is not mention of females. Especially the majority of the current cohort of young transitioners.

Quite consistent really.

RVN123 · 02/03/2022 21:12

Correct.
Biology and its principles are FACTS.
Do you know HOW we know they are facts?
Because if all knowledge was wiped out tomorrow and the human race had to start again, we would still discover all the same things, come to all the same conclusions, get the same results to our investigations and prove the same things.
Facts don't change.

The same medical books would emerge in hundreds of years as there are now.
It's almost as if biology couldn't give a shiny shite about "feelings".

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 02/03/2022 22:16

Very consistent helle

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/03/2022 01:20

She doesn't think trans women are women

Well, no. Why would she?

DadJoke · 03/03/2022 11:07

It's not just the belief that sex is immutable which is the issue, it's the full range of gender critical beliefs, and for someone who has the protected, if scientifically unsupported belief that gender identity isn't real to work for an organisation which is founded on that would be like offering a job in a NASA to a flat-Earther. Sex is real, gender identity is real.

DomesticatedZombie · 03/03/2022 11:10

Sex is real, gender identity is real.

Okay, I can get on board with that. But the latter cannot and does not supersede or trump the former.

DomesticatedZombie · 03/03/2022 11:11

Besides, to suggest that 'gender identity ins't real' is a 'gc' belief is a bit of a stretch.

It's real in as much as any felt emotion/idea/thought is real.

There is a difference between that and material reality.

Waitwhat23 · 03/03/2022 11:15

Gender critical views (as a protected belief) as concluded by the Forstater appeal -

'The appeal was allowed after the appeal tribunal concluded the belief that "biological sex is real, important and immutable" (my bolds) met the legal test of a "genuine and important philosophical position", and "could not be shown to be a direct attempt to harm others." As such these beliefs were afforded protection under the Equality Act.'

What is the 'full range of gender critical beliefs' out of interest?

OldCrone · 03/03/2022 11:33

@DadJoke

It's not just the belief that sex is immutable which is the issue, it's the full range of gender critical beliefs, and for someone who has the protected, if scientifically unsupported belief that gender identity isn't real to work for an organisation which is founded on that would be like offering a job in a NASA to a flat-Earther. Sex is real, gender identity is real.
What is a 'gender identity' and how is supported scientifically? Can you post some links to peer reviewed articles?

A belief in 'gender identity' seems to be a belief that someone can have an identity which conflicts with reality. How is this scientifically supported?

Surely it's the gender identity believers who should be compared to flat earthers.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 03/03/2022 11:38

What is the 'full range of gender critical beliefs' out of interest

Id honestly love a definition

Preferably an official one but I’ll take one from a random poster on mumsnet

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/03/2022 11:45

Surely it's the gender identity believers who should be compared to flat earthers.

Yes. It's just a DARVO. An unoriginal talking point for trans activists.

AlisonDonut · 03/03/2022 11:46

@DadJoke

It's not just the belief that sex is immutable which is the issue, it's the full range of gender critical beliefs, and for someone who has the protected, if scientifically unsupported belief that gender identity isn't real to work for an organisation which is founded on that would be like offering a job in a NASA to a flat-Earther. Sex is real, gender identity is real.
Can you expand on these full range of GC beliefs please.

The only thing I agree on is that sex is fixed at conception. I'd be very interested in what other beliefs you have associated with me without permission.

A list might help. Thanks.

MrsWooster · 03/03/2022 11:55

I too would like a glimpse of “ the full range of GC beliefs”. Afaiac, it boils down to sex is real and immutable and the rest is a combo of fashion and personality -‘dress as you please, sleep with whoever’ll have you..’ as a woman wiser than me once said.

FrancescaContini · 03/03/2022 12:03

@DadJoke

It's not just the belief that sex is immutable which is the issue, it's the full range of gender critical beliefs, and for someone who has the protected, if scientifically unsupported belief that gender identity isn't real to work for an organisation which is founded on that would be like offering a job in a NASA to a flat-Earther. Sex is real, gender identity is real.
In what sense is gender identity “real”?
NecessaryScene · 03/03/2022 12:09

A belief in 'gender identity' seems to be a belief that someone can have an identity which conflicts with reality. How is this scientifically supported?

Note that the concept also incorporates the assertion that someone's false belief that they are/should be the opposite sex is the same as someone's knowledge that they are the sex they are.

Thus a male's "female gender identity" (rebadged gender dysphoria) is the same as a female's "female gender identity" (observation of reality).

You could maybe steel man it as "desire to be a particular sex", so a man can have a "female gender identity" (desire to be a woman). But then most women wouldn't have that - they'd be basically indifferent. A very few might. Hence the high number of non-binaries in female gender believers - they don't want to be a woman, so they logically conclude they don't have this (defined by males) "female gender identity".