Don’t bother applying for a job if you think people can’t change sex, NHS trust tells health official

[MidCenturyClegs]

uk.news.yahoo.com/don-t-bother-applying-job-162233187.html

The wonderful Kate Grimes expressed interest in a non-exec position at the Tavi this year and was told to not waste her time as she holds gender critical beliefs. Peter Daly has been employed. Wow!

@DadJoke

It's not just the belief that sex is immutable which is the issue, it's the full range of gender critical beliefs, and for someone who has the protected, if scientifically unsupported belief that gender identity isn't real to work for an organisation which is founded on that would be like offering a job in a NASA to a flat-Earther. Sex is real, gender identity is real.

Your NASA analogy doesn't work for several reasons.

Firstly, not sure how many times it has to be said (I am sure the readers have picked it up though). There are already people with a huge range of views on this topic providing care at the Tavistock whether directly or in a supporting role. You don't seem to be able to acknowledge that. At all. Same old, same old, I guess.

Secondly, if a flat earther was the very best selection for a role, why does this matter? So..... on one hand you are angry about discrimination against trans people. And yet, you are very happy to discriminate against someone else who doesn't believe that transitioned males can ever be a female or be a woman.

That is nothing new. It is all part of the 'cancel culture' perpetuated by extremist trans activists. Well done. You are continuing that.

Thirdly, a 'flat earther' believes in a scientifically unsupported belief. True. You have tried a very nice sleight of hand here in twisting it that 'gender identity' is a scientifically supported belief.

What a shocker!!! That you would do such a thing.

Please, by all means supply the links that scientifically support gender identity. As it is being pushed today. Meaning that anyone can have one and it is not a mental health condition as it once was described.

As I have said before, I am looking forward to it.

PS: please do not post a blog post.

Note that the concept also incorporates the assertion that someone's false belief that they are/should be the opposite sex is the same as someone's knowledge that they are the sex they are.

This poster in particular seems to have a blind spot around this.

It's related to specious statements like "95% of women also have autogynephilia as they are aroused by thinking of themselves as women having sex"

@DadJoke

So if, as you say, “gender identity” is real, is it a constant thing, regardless of historical period, geography, social class, ethnicity, age, etc?

And if this is the case, would a male Aborigine alive in 1850 have the same understanding of “gender identity” as a medieval farmer in Scotland or as a young woman currently growing up in Alaska or Mongolia?

It seems to depend heavily on socially constructed stereotypes which vary in space and time, for something supposedly innate. Eg football (soccer) is (according to various "how I knew I was trans accounts") girly in the US but not the U.K.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It seems to depend heavily on socially constructed stereotypes which vary in space and time, for something supposedly innate. Eg football (soccer) is (according to various "how I knew I was trans accounts") girly in the US but not the U.K.

Quite, which is why it’d be helpful of @DadJoke to provide proof of how it’s “real”.

I am not going to argue here about the reality or otherwise of gender identity. The point is that Tavistock supports it, and supports transgender people. It would never employ anyone who doesn't think trans women are women in any senior role, and that's a perfectly reasonable position.

To turn it around for people who think gender identity is akin to a religious belied, it's like the Church of England rejecting an application for a Bishop who is a Muslim.

I am not going to argue here about the reality or otherwise of gender identity

Yes we all understand why you wouldn't want to try and argue that.

'Woman' by the way is a term referring to adult human female's not gender - that would be 'feminine'

DadJoke.

Bollocks.

The Tavi is part of the NHS. It sees children who are confused about their gender identity. This confusion may have a variety of causes. Autism, internet influence, previous abuse, genuine gender dysphoria. Their job is to take a professional and dispassionate approach, and get to the bottom of what is causing the distress.

Years back their approach used to be "watchful waiting". Sounds about right. You really don't medical interventions unless you are certain and have no alternatives.

Are you really a dad? Of daughters?

To turn it around for people who think gender identity is akin to a religious belied, it's like the Church of England rejecting an application for a Bishop who is a Muslim.

Well, that is an interesting perspective.

Indeed.

DadJoke may be correct about this situation in that it's a question of believers of a niche and highly unevidenced belief set discriminating against people who do not share the faith.

What isn't correct is that this is a desirable, sensible or even legally correct situation.

@DomesticatedZombie

To turn it around for people who think gender identity is akin to a religious belied, it's like the Church of England rejecting an application for a Bishop who is a Muslim.

Well, that is an interesting perspective.

Indeed.

Of course, the only reason the Church of England could lawfully refuse such an application is the exemptions granted in the Equality Act for organisations centered around a religion or belief.

So the comparison only holds if one's view is that GIDS is explicitly a church and not a clinic.

it's like the Church of England rejecting an application for a Bishop who is a Muslim.

How or why would a practicing Muslim become a Church of England Bishop? Whereas any qualified person can apply for this role.

What is the 'full range of gender critical beliefs' out of interest

You may have missed this from an earlier poster dadjoke

I appreciate you are unable to argue that gender identity exists but you were the one bringing up ‘ the full range of gender critical beliefs’ so I’d imagine you know the answer

To turn it around for people who think gender identity is akin to a religious belied, it's like the Church of England rejecting an application for a Bishop who is a Muslim.

Wow.

As we discussed above, the Tavistock is supposed to be a medical service, funded by the NHS.

Not a religious organisation.

If it wants to be a religious organisation, that's fine, but it needs to leave the NHS. And it needs to stop performing treatment on children.

It's good to hear TRAs clarify the situation. This is a movement founded on faith.

The NHS is (supposed to be) based on evidence, data and a scientific approach.

@DadJoke

I am not going to argue here about the reality or otherwise of gender identity. The point is that Tavistock supports it, and supports transgender people. It would never employ anyone who doesn't think trans women are women in any senior role, and that's a perfectly reasonable position.

To turn it around for people who think gender identity is akin to a religious belied, it's like the Church of England rejecting an application for a Bishop who is a Muslim.

Sure but if you could just run us through the full range of GC beliefs before you go that would be great.

I'll start you off
1: sex is fixed at conception.

You next.

I suspect that the answers about 'range of gender critical views' are not forthcoming...

The point is that Tavistock supports it, and supports transgender people. It would never employ anyone who doesn't think trans women are women in any senior role, and that's a perfectly reasonable position.

And you are incorrect again. They have had senior staff that you (specifically you, DadJoke) would consider 'gender critical'. You can keep claiming it is not so. But it has been true historically. And it will be true again.

Because you seem to think that only those who fully believe in the same things as their patients and the people they serve are the best providers of health care. And you are fundamentally wrong on that.

They may be the ones inclined to simply give a patient what that patient wants... is that appropriate? No. But that is exactly where your scenario leads to. And I get it. It is straight out of that crazy manifesto that declared that transpeople get everything they want and can even experiment on themselves.

To turn it around for people who think gender identity is akin to a religious belied, it's like the Church of England rejecting an application for a Bishop who is a Muslim.

AT LAST! DadJoke is showing some honesty. It IS like a religious belief and is NOT supported by scientific evidence.

And by the way, the Church of England most likely has people of all religions working in senior administrative roles too. As long as they can do their job to the best of their ability. I know some churches that employ non-believers and they do just fine.

This discrimination is being fed by your own ideological thinking and you cannot admit it. Just own it. It is your interpretation of what people who don't believe transitioned males (or, by the way DadJoke, females) are actually the sex they are or that they become 'men' or 'women'.

However, you also seem to completely forget that those at the Tavistock are treating gender dysphoria. Which was a mental health issue and is now not based on anything but ideology.

Are you now telling us that gender dysphoria does not exist and is not the basis of trans health treatment? Is that right DadJoke? A small group of people simply turn up as ask for extreme cosmetic surgery and hormone treatment to 'get the look'? Is that what you are saying DadJoke?

Your analogies have all failed by the way. They are really old and weak.

How or why would a practicing Muslim become a Church of England Bishop? Whereas any qualified person can apply for this role.

They don't need to become a Bishop to be a senior employee of the Church of England. That is why that specific analogy is again fucking bollocks. (and I know you know that Eresh, I am just continuing your train of thought)

And again. There has been senior practitioners all around the world who don't believe that transitioned males or females become the sex they are being treated for. In fact, if any clinician actually believed that, they should be sacked due to their unscientific approach.

I imagine that DadJoke would want to give those transitioned male surgeons who have been saying...actually the WPATH guidelines for treating children are not actually really fit for purpose too. They also are up front in stating that sex cannot be changed. DadJoke would want them thrown out of their jobs.

Because... purity spirals....

The point is that Tavistock supports it, and supports transgender people. It would never employ anyone who doesn't think trans women are women in any senior role

By the same token they should maybe also not employ people who do. It's exactly the same conflict of interest. The Tavistock is an NHS Trust, not a university LGBTSoc.

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

What is the 'full range of gender critical beliefs' out of interest

You may have missed this from an earlier poster dadjoke

I appreciate you are unable to argue that gender identity exists but you were the one bringing up ‘ the full range of gender critical beliefs’ so I’d imagine you know the answer

I've been through this on this forum before, and I'm not doing it again. The evidence is accepted by all major psychiatric and medical bodies, and there is no point in me doing 101 for you.

Here is her doing the talking points I mentioned.

www.hsj.co.uk/workforce/working-with-stonewall-is-no-longer-compatible-with-nhs-values/7030259.article

That's a subscribe only link.

Could you link to any threads where 'you've been through it all before' please?

I've been through this on this forum before, and I'm not doing it again. The evidence is accepted by all major psychiatric and medical bodies, and there is no point in me doing 101 for you

What? You said there is a full range of gender critical beliefs

I am asking what they are

I’m not asking for you to argue that gender identity exists