Don’t bother applying for a job if you think people can’t change sex, NHS trust tells health official

[MidCenturyClegs]

uk.news.yahoo.com/don-t-bother-applying-job-162233187.html

The wonderful Kate Grimes expressed interest in a non-exec position at the Tavi this year and was told to not waste her time as she holds gender critical beliefs. Peter Daly has been employed. Wow!

Agreed. It's just pigeon chess.

anyway

I might have missed it but how does this all hold with the Forstater appeal decision? Given that GC views are a protected belief characteristic - is not employment discrimination to deny someone's application if they are known to hold that (protected) belief?

you are the ones arguing trans women should be excluded from everything to do with women on the basis of your prejudices against them.

No, just all males, regardless of gender identity, where necessary for women's privacy, dignity, safety, ability to participate on an equal footing with males in public life, and our political organisation as an oppressed class of people with many sex based needs.

It's not hard to understand but you keep misrepresenting my views. Why is that?

@SamphiretheStickerist

identify

1. establish or indicate who or what (someone or something) is.

Saying "I am a woman" is identifying as a woman.

@Helleofabore

The constant personal attacks are coming rather thick and fast on these threads at the moment.

Careful wims.

Some posters are not able to come back with well structured and evidenced post so continue to resort to ad hom and some very personal attacks.

Wands out or Bunbury Guides, whichever best meets your needs.

I must confess that I'm finding myself mired in some of the more exuberant attempts at logic statements that are non-responsively scattered by some contributors. They manage, nonetheless, to have the menace of 1984 and O'Brien about them.

Not everyone you consider "female" is a woman, and some people you consider "female" are trans.

And second, trans women are women, and cis women (i.e. "natal", "biological", whatever) are not the only women.

Saying "I am a woman" is identifying as a woman.

If an adult female human says 'I am a woman', she is stating a fact. This is nothing to do with 'identifying' as anything.

If an adult male human says 'I am a woman', he is lying.

I might have missed it but how does this all hold with the Forstater appeal decision? Given that GC views are a protected belief characteristic - is not employment discrimination to deny someone's application if they are known to hold that (protected) belief?

Anyone in that position would certainly be advised to take legal advice, as they may have a case. Especially when this Melanie woman actually said on the record that she was actively asking for information about personal beliefs that she doesn't have a right to know, in order to discriminate.

@Lekisa658

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Again the utter lack of logic!

Women, of the class woman, are a subset of the class woman? How does that work?

Unless you are misunderstanding what classes and cohorts are!

Every woman is of the class woman.

No man forms any part of that class.

Tall women
Short women
Black women
Asian women
Blonde women
Women who can sing
Women who can knit
Women who like the colour purple.

All kinds of women.

All subsets of the class of woman whilst simultaneously being the ONLY cohort in that class.

Nothing you can say can change that.

Replace woman with cat, see how it goes when you try to insist that all cats are a subset of cat and that a giraffe is also a cat, because it wants to be!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

you are the ones arguing trans women should be excluded from everything to do with women on the basis of your prejudices against them.

No, just all males, regardless of gender identity, where necessary for women's privacy, dignity, safety, ability to participate on an equal footing with males in public life, and our political organisation as an oppressed class of people with many sex based needs.

It's not hard to understand but you keep misrepresenting my views. Why is that?

And that is discrimination. What's not clicking?

Yes, knowing what sex you are isn't the same thing as a male person identifying as a woman.

Excluding trans women is discrimination. It's really that simple. "Sex-based" discrimination is discrimination, even if you agree with it.

And that is discrimination. What's not clicking?

Read the law. There are sex based exemptions provided for especially for these scenarios.

You're the ones who make up fictional scenarios to vilify trans people, you are the ones arguing trans women should be excluded from everything to do with women on the basis of your prejudices against them

Transwomen don't belong in woman-only spaces or sports because they are not women. This is nothing to do with 'prejudice' or 'vilification' of trans people. It's because they are male. All other males are also excluded.

Gosh, lots of deleted messages here. Hope none of them had the "correct" definition of woman we're all supposed to be subscribing to - I've waited for years for someone to provide that, hope I haven't missed it!

Does anyone know if there's any update on the article in the OP - is a review being initiated?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes, knowing what sex you are isn't the same thing as a male person identifying as a woman.

Saying you are a woman is identifying as a woman. You share that identity with trans women.

(I'd ask Bunbury, but she's advising on other matters)

@Ereshkigalangcleg

And that is discrimination. What's not clicking?

Read the law. There are sex based exemptions provided for especially for these scenarios.

And there are also exemptions where those are waived to include trans women.

I genuinely have no idea if I'm a woman or not, as no-one will do me the courtesy of telling me how I'm supposed to find out. So I don't 'share' that, as far as I know.

No there aren't. There are no specific directions in the Equality Act to include any males in women's spaces.

[quote Lekisa658]@SamphiretheStickerist

identify

1. establish or indicate who or what (someone or something) is.

Saying "I am a woman" is identifying as a woman.[/quote]
Erm... No. It doesn't work like that. I don't have to establish my sex every time I wake up, or meet a new person. At birth my sex is recognised, recorded, I AM.

The material fact of my femaleness is unchanging.

Everything about my personality is up for change. As are my thoughts and opinions.

But my sex simply is.

You can argue this until blue in the face. But as you are intentionally misusing any number of words you won't get farther than the end of your own nose.

You literally kept making inappropriate inquiries about my mother, and made up fictional scenarios written to paint trans women as sexual predators.

"I" have never asked about your mother. I don't care who your mother is. I can be assured though, as can every single person on this planet, that your mother was female. Nothing else about your mother is relevant to this discussion.

However, you inability to acknowledge that a mother will always be female is very much the issue at hand.

I on the other hand, have been asking you all day to start providing evidence for your continued emotionally manipulative posts.

Do you have anything of interest to contribute to the threads you are on? Or are you running out of the tired old trope that you seem to think is new and compelling, that we see every fucking week?

If you are simply here to shame posters on a feminist board for holding a range of views that revolve around the fact that sex is immutable, then I am sure you have realised that we have seen it all before. And that no, you don't seem to have anything new to contribute except the live demonstration of extreme trans activist views that we have been told by regular transitioned male and female posters on this board are NOT representative of the trans community.

So, really you are only even representing a small subset of trans people that really seems very extreme.

The exemptions can include MTF trans people, but it's left up to service providers.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

'Gender reassignment:paragraph 28

Effect

739.This paragraph contains an exception to the general prohibition of gender reassignment discrimination in relation to the provision of separate- and single-sex services. Such treatment by a provider has to be objectively justified.'

(I am muttering Bunbury, Bunbury, Bunbury to myself - it's not helping!)

Saying you are a woman is identifying as a woman. You share that identity with trans women.

No and no.

Saying you are a woman is identifying as a woman.

How can I find out whether I am a woman or a man (or both or neither) @Lekisa658?

I need a definition of what a woman is so that I know whether I am one. Can you help?

@Lekisa658

Excluding trans women is discrimination. It's really that simple. "Sex-based" discrimination is discrimination, even if you agree with it.

For all of those new to this, for all still lurking.

This is what we gender critical posters are talking about.

The absurdity, the total bobbins ideology that makes can be females if they just say they want to be.

Within all the to'ing and fro'ing, the court cases, the legal challenges THIS is what we are fighting against.

I doubt you will see the ludicrousness as plainly as this: it is discrimination to object to any man using any female space.

With no further thought required. This is gender ideology writ large!