Mhairi Black and 'gingers'

[DomesticatedZombie]

order-order.com/2022/02/22/mhairi-black-compares-intersex-people-to-gingers/

I didn't realise Miriam Cates has a degree in genetics.

Anyway, here is Mhairi Black using a term I find pretty distasteful. 'Gingers'? Isn't this equivalent to 'Blondes'? Applied as a descriptor like this it winds me up.

As does her using of people with intersex disorders as a cheap, and irrelevant, point scoring exercise.

@WarriorN

This is why the idiocy of certain YouTubers trying to force everyone to call a number of women with dsds men, is a ridiculously stupid idea for this movement.

Not only are they vile and horribly incorrect but as many of the public and those in public life don't actually understand the difference between trans I'd and a person with a dsd (even Margaret Atwood unless Hadley has helped there) it's going to ruin and smear feminist working hard on this.

I felt that Miriam Cate could have been clearer and said, "you're not describing trans people there" to Mhairi. There's a difference.

She almost did, Warrior:

'People who are intersex should be treated with the compassion they deserve during every medical treatment from birth, but that is different from saying that someone who is born male can choose to be female or vice versa, which is why I said that that is rarely the case. Normally the determination at conception is either male or female, and that is the biological, genetic fact.'

And a few minutes later:

'The debate is not about people with genetic abnormalities; it is about people who are identifying as a different gender from their birth sex. They are two very different things, and I am talking about the latter.'

I am surprised at a Scottish MP coming out with 'gingers'.

The dodgy statistics about the frequency of red hair were not the Scottish statistics which are a lot higher.

Called women cunts for being gc

This. Misogynist.

She is sharp as a tack

Well there are two possibilities. Either she’s not as sharp as a tack in any way, and doesn’t understand genetics, statistics, or DSDs. Or she IS as sharp as a tack, DOES understand these things, but is deliberately lying to further the propaganda she’s peddling in her speech.

Neither is a good look really.

Catherina I think our definition of ‘sharp as a tack’ may be different. Her grammar is poor and she comes across as a thick playground bully. And I doubt the GC women in her constituency who she suggested were cunts for their beliefs feel engaged with her.

I hope that we all agree that this small minority of people should be able to change their gender from the one assigned to them at birth. Their gender will usually have been assigned based on a visual check, with no further requirements for anything else to go on the birth certificate. That means that many people will grow up feeling very different.

What the earth do you even mean, Lloyd Russel Mole? What other checks do you suggest?! He is confusing intersex and trans, too, isn't he?

Joanna Cherry:

'Only last week in Scotland, we had two major legal decisions seemingly in conflict about the meaning of sex in law. Fortunately, because of the appellate system, we know that the appellate court’s decision will take precedence, and the appellate court in Scotland was very clear that as our law stands under the Equality Act, sex is not interchangeable with gender. There is a protected characteristic of sex, but not one of gender. There is a protected characteristic of gender reassignment, but the appeal court in Scotland was very clear that sex means male or female in law, based on biological sex. That is the highest interpretation of the Equality Act in our law at present. The word “women” in the Equality Act does not include males who self-identify as women.'

She later goes on to say " Well, I am a woman and I do not feel threatened"

Good for you hen.

Now go and explain why you think you can speak for me. Or for other women.

@Abhannmor

What a disappointment she has turned into.

She's not turned into a disappointment to me, she's been utterly dreadful from start to finish. Not a supporter of women and an absolute embarrassment to boot.

Exactly, how dare she not give a shit about women and girls who do feel threatened and scared/worried?

@SheldonesqueTheBstard

She later goes on to say " Well, I am a woman and I do not feel threatened"

Good for you hen.

Now go and explain why you think you can speak for me. Or for other women.

Exactly, I was really mad when I heard her say that. "I'm alright Jack". Well I'm not alright with it and neither are my two daughters and we are all female.

Moving speech from Neil Hanvey. It seems quite stark how much more informed & substantial his, and Joanna Cherry's speech, were, compared to some of the utterly meaningless fluff that some of the other speakers came out with. Referencing concrete and specific points of law, etc.

I don't think using slurs and hugely mistaken statistics demonstrates anyone being 'sharp as a tack'.

@daringdoris

and a conversation about people calling people ginger simply isn't complete without the wonderful Tim Minchin singing about prejudice

You got there before me!

"She is sharp as a tack and well spoken, she's on top of her brief and engaged for her constituents, as well as wider politics."

Are ye sure ye're on the right thread?

I just saw part of her speech but not where she spoke about ‘gingers’.

At one point she said a trans woman already does not need a GRC to go in to female toilets. (The way she said this made it seem like law. She was listing all the things you do not need it for.)

Is this correct?

What the earth do you even mean, Lloyd Russel Mole? What other checks do you suggest?! He is confusing intersex and trans, too, isn't he?

I think he's following the line "trans = intersex, cos it's having a female brain in a male body, innit?"

Obvious nonsense - even aside from the logical/philosophical problems it's clear as day to anyone that transmen act like women and transwomen act like men, no matter how they claim to "feel".

If there is an opposite-sex brain there, then somehow they still act entirely like their own sex. And what we care about when legislating for is how people interact with others is how they act, not what they say about what they feel.

And that's the point - anyone can claim or believe what they want personally, and legislation won't get in the way. The legislation is to cover interaction with others. Who also have feelings and rights!

Meanwhile, quoting actual real research into trans brains (which turns out to make rather more sense given the behaviour) gets you suspended from Twitter:

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1496190823226089479

I don't think she said it clearly enough domesticated.

Certainly Mhairi wasn't listening either

Sam's deletion is bonkers.

And that's a really good thread thanks.

I wonder if DMN is more easily affected both during puberty and also in females (due to intense sexist social pressures such as media, fashion etc). This used to result in higher rates of self harm, anorexia etc but now has switched to trans ID.

I've had body dysmorphia most of my life focused on my face/ skin. It was worse late childhood/ puberty / into early 20s. I know what the triggers were and they were mostly all external plus my natural character.

There was a lot of fawing over Black on here. It was a case of falling for a lack of style over substance.

Black is a lesbian. She does not "perform femininity" (always a winner on here) preferring a terrible haircut and badly cut, badly fitting trouser suits. She swears a lot too (and how tediously and frequently that is lauded on Mumsnet). And on top of all that there was the fake working class credentials.

Did Mhairi actually use the word "gingers"? Guido uses it in the headline of the linked article, but the quote from Mhairi doesn't refer to "gingers". This is the quote:

“People often think that we have male and female, but the truth is that 1-2% of the global population is born intersex, which means they present characteristics of both sexes. To put that into perspective, 1-2% of the population are ginger – so is she telling me she doesn’t believe in ginger people?”

Obviously the quote is idiotic, and factually wrong, but it doesn't talk about "gingers".

@CatherinaJTV

I think someone with a degree in genetics should be listened to than someone with a politics degree. They are going to have some idea of what they are talking about.

@RoyalCorgi

Did Mhairi actually use the word "gingers"? Guido uses it in the headline of the linked article, but the quote from Mhairi doesn't refer to "gingers". This is the quote:

“People often think that we have male and female, but the truth is that 1-2% of the global population is born intersex, which means they present characteristics of both sexes. To put that into perspective, 1-2% of the population are ginger – so is she telling me she doesn’t believe in ginger people?”

Obviously the quote is idiotic, and factually wrong, but it doesn't talk about "gingers".

Hm. I think 'ginger' is not really that great either, is it? Red haired people I know tend to prefer not to be called 'ginger'. It is sometimes used in a derogatory way.

@KimikosNightmare

There was a lot of fawing over Black on here. It was a case of falling for a lack of style over substance.

Black is a lesbian. She does not "perform femininity" (always a winner on here) preferring a terrible haircut and badly cut, badly fitting trouser suits. She swears a lot too (and how tediously and frequently that is lauded on Mumsnet). And on top of all that there was the fake working class credentials.

Yes, I admit I'm one of those feminists with shit hair and a penchant for trouser suits/bad fashion choices. And I like a good swear.

It wasn't actually this that impressed me about Mhairi, though - it was her apparent willingness to speak up on issues that she cared about and be honest, and what seemed like a down to earth attitude - refreshing in a political class that has become so focussed on career and soundbites.

She's still awfy young. Maybe given another decade she'll accrue some more life experience and learn to balance passion with compassion and tolerance.

[quote MingeofDeath]**@CatherinaJTV

I think someone with a degree in genetics should be listened to than someone with a politics degree. They are going to have some idea of what they are talking about.[/quote]
I have a degree in genetics