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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lia Thomas is the Ivy League Champion in the 500 free

136 replies

Justme56 · 18/02/2022 09:10

Not only is Lia the champion, but Lia set a new pool record. Lia was, I believe, 7 seconds faster than Catherine Buroker.

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334bu · 19/02/2022 01:05

334buwhat are the comments like on the Australian article? I don’t subscribe.

Neither do I but was able to read article and comments, all of which were saying that this was unfair.

Motorina · 19/02/2022 04:04

Can’t help thinking it might have helped if he’d have picked a new name that was a bit female as a hint.

Thomas as the surname. Lia is the new female first name. I agree it’s confusing.

Thomas transitioned a year or so ago, and has had hormone treatment to lower testosterone as part of that. There is no suggestion that Thomas has had surgery.

powershowerforanhour · 19/02/2022 05:08

"wonder how long before an over ambitious parent / coach takes a promising girl athlete and puts here on testosterone at puberty so she will have a larger frame / muscle mass and then stop after a few years so she can compete as an adult / older teen."

It wouldn't work all that well. For maximum effectiveness testosterone needs to be interacting with muscle, lung, bone cells that contain XY, not XX chromosomes. So it's better to take a biologically male body and just put a pink dress on it now and again.

NecessaryScene · 19/02/2022 06:46

Ross Tucker dissects the performance:

twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1494588013111881758

Here are the 50-yard splits from the medalists in the women’s 500-yard freestyle final at the Ivy League champs. A 15-year old pool record was broken. Pacing strategy 101: Which of these patterns suggests a significant reserve capacity and likely underperformance?

If you said, gold, you’d be right. In events lasting longer than about 3 min, negative pacing strategies and the characteristic endspurt (where we speed up at the end) are suggestive of someone who has maintained a reserve, producing a controlled effort below max for the race

A larger endspurt and a greater negative split reveal that a greater reserve was held. In effect, it speaks to how much “was in the tank" at the end. It’s produced when we tap into a reserve. Typically, max or optimal performances are achieved with slight negative or even splits

Indeed, the progression of world records in distance events is the result of “flattening” the curve. It used to be they started fast, slowed down, then sped up a bit (like the bronze medalist here). But optimal performances require flat lines. I’d say sliver is very close to this

But gold is an anomaly. This is a pattern that suggests a very comfortable effort, well managed and controlled, with significant capacity to go faster, realised in the final 50 yards only. If was a coach of that athlete, I’d be excited at the potential time if pacing was optimal.

And he reposts an screenshot from swimmingworld:

twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1494892731453386754

"Thomas' closing 50 appears to be the fastest in history [...] it is highly likely that Thomas is sandbagging her [sic] races in order to avoid the additional attention she [sic] would garner with faster times."

Lia Thomas is the Ivy League Champion in the 500 free
Lia Thomas is the Ivy League Champion in the 500 free
Mamajunebugjones · 19/02/2022 06:49

Seems defeatist, but perhaps need to take gender out of sports and make an ‘XX body’ category

Doubletoilandtrouble · 19/02/2022 07:02

Motorina, I think it is established that Thomas hasn’t had surgery. There have been several articles claiming that Thomas’ team mates are unconscious as Thomas sometimes is a bit careless in their locker room and shows off their male genitalia. This is usually stated straight after the acknowledgment that Thomas is attracted to women.

Chersfrozenface · 19/02/2022 07:05

Actually, I think the lack of response by the media, especially in the US, is telling. They should be celebrating the success of a member of the most oppressed minority ever and praising to the skies the inclusiveness of the competition and its authorities.

But they daren't. They daren't draw attention to it because they know what the reaction of the majority of people would be. They are terrified of the effect on the genderist campaign whose mast they've nailed their colours to.

Delphinium20 · 19/02/2022 07:16

@Chersfrozenface

Actually, I think the lack of response by the media, especially in the US, is telling. They should be celebrating the success of a member of the most oppressed minority ever and praising to the skies the inclusiveness of the competition and its authorities.

But they daren't. They daren't draw attention to it because they know what the reaction of the majority of people would be. They are terrified of the effect on the genderist campaign whose mast they've nailed their colours to.

You are absolutely right. MSM praised the transwoman winner of Jeopardy over and over and headlined that story for weeks. Besides the annoying "highest winning woman" taglines, a transwoman winning Jeopardy is benign. Men and women compete against each other on that show all the time.

But ignoring Lia is very, very telling.

miri1985 · 19/02/2022 10:15

#penncheats is one of the top trending topics on twitter in Ireland

Lia Thomas is the Ivy League Champion in the 500 free
Procrastinator85 · 19/02/2022 10:38

Personally, as someone who lurks here but isn't able to be public about this issue, I am all in favour of Lia Thomas continuing her rise to the top.

Sport is the touchstone by which many of my female TWAW friends are starting to question their beliefs, particularly the sporty ones. Once you have got them to accept that TWANW for the purposes of sport, then you can see the light beginning to dawn for them in other areas too.

So well done Lia Thomas - you are doing an excellent job.

SamphiretheStickerist · 19/02/2022 11:14

I had the same hopes for the summer Olympics. But that died a death because the competitor seemed to throw the lifts. Made a total mockery of the sport but didn't get much airtime, no podium pictures. So nobody really spoke about it...

littlebilliie · 19/02/2022 11:24

@DorothyZbornakIsAQueen

It's an absolute travesty.

Congratulations to Catherine Buroker. Rightful winner!!!

This
ErrolTheDragon · 19/02/2022 11:50

@Mamajunebugjones

Seems defeatist, but perhaps need to take gender out of sports and make an ‘XX body’ category
Why is that 'defeatist'? Confused 'Gender' should never have been allowed to be substituted for sex in the first place. There is absolutely no justification for 'gender' categories. And in fact, when it comes to 'nonbinary' athletes - who would be excluded if the 2 categories actually were masculine and feminine 'gendered' - they seem afaik to sensibly adhere to the common understanding that they need to compete in the correct sex category.
UsernameIsNotAvailableRightNow · 19/02/2022 12:53

👏

Lia Thomas is the Ivy League Champion in the 500 free
InvisibleDragon · 19/02/2022 12:58

I love Ross Tucker's forensic analysis of the data. It's interesting that for people with an expert knowledge of both swimming (Sharron Davies) and sport science (Tucker) can identify specific differences in Lia Thomas's strategy and stroke style that suggest a non-optimised performance.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 19/02/2022 13:10

@Procrastinator85

Personally, as someone who lurks here but isn't able to be public about this issue, I am all in favour of Lia Thomas continuing her rise to the top.

Sport is the touchstone by which many of my female TWAW friends are starting to question their beliefs, particularly the sporty ones. Once you have got them to accept that TWANW for the purposes of sport, then you can see the light beginning to dawn for them in other areas too.

So well done Lia Thomas - you are doing an excellent job.

Meanwhile, women are losing opportunities, sponsorships, and probably scholarships.

And when TW are getting sponsorships, it's attracting publicity. Who needs the boring sort of women.

All of this will happen despite my frustration but I have no expectation any of this will change. By and large, societies care little about the social and political welfare of women.

NoWireHangersEver · 19/02/2022 13:46

Someone made a Kamila Valieva comparison - slightly OT but it might be of interest to you that the three young Russian skaters at Beijing 2022 are being given Lupron to slow their growth! According to a Slate article published a few days ago

Supersimkin2 · 19/02/2022 14:00

If Lia is reading this I apologise for being tactless.

But most people, trans included, would be a bit taken aback because she’s a bloke who looks and acts like a bloke competing in women’s sport. And says they’re trans with zero evidence.

My mate who is a long-standing TW would raise an eyebrow. Most real trans people put an awful lot of specialist effort, cash and energy into changing and maintaining the physical alterations - it’s no joke.

It really is a lot of effort to be trans - some of the surgery is awful - but Thomas clearly isn’t doing any of that. Hmmm.

EdithStourton · 19/02/2022 18:13

Lia Thomas should be ashamed of liaself.

Refuse to use 'her'.

Plasmodesmata · 19/02/2022 18:20

OT again sorry - following NoWireHanger's post found this Guardian interview with an ex Russian teenage skater who was also given puberty blockers.
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/mar/20/experience-i-took-hormone-blockers-to-become-an-ice-skating-champion.
The Guardian seems to think that this is not a good thing (obviously).
But yet....

SheldonesqueTheBstard · 19/02/2022 18:24

I wonder what kind of person sleeps at night knowing they are damaging the rights of the very people they proclaim to be just like.

Unless they think they are a superior version?

Adam’s rib now has a tail.

and a fucking nerve

Linguini · 19/02/2022 18:47

@NecessaryScene

But then, doping has been around d for years, so for some people it must just be the winning.

There must be a particular sort of thrill in being able to openly cheat and people not being able to stop you.

... and be able to openly get naked with women in their communal changing and showering areas with no one being able to stop you
ATrifleofFun · 19/02/2022 19:26

There is a second trans athlete in the same competition, Iszack ?? Can't remember the surname. In the 100m sprint. It flashed on my newsfeed earlier. How long before all the ivy League are sending their second rate male swimmers for medals?

ATrifleofFun · 19/02/2022 19:30

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10524797/Transgender-swimmer-Iszac-Henig-gives-thumbs-setting-pool-record-50-yard-freestyle.html I stand corrected, Henig is FTM, has had surgery but not hormones. All makes it very confusing.

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