Womanface

[ExtraPlinky]

I'd like some of our visitors to explain the difference between blackface and womanface.

I am not white.
So please explain to me how you think it's different to pretend to be black comparing to pretending to be a woman.

I'd like to see an answer to this too, OP.

www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/jun/12/dont-compare-drag-queens-to-blackfaced-minstrels/

Sums it up for me

@Francescaisstressed sorry the argument is that women have not been oppressed by the men wearing drag? And drag does not mock women? (Fishy smells??)

It is not based on depicting women as comically subhuman for the delight of the nation’s majority population. It is not a vestige of a century of vigorous punching down by the powerful against the powerless.

Isn't it? Some of it looks pretty much like that. With sexual objectification thrown in for good measure.

Drag can be sexist. It doesn't have to be and alot of the time isn't. Blackface is always racist.

@Francescaisstressed will it is almost entirely male - 99.99999% I’d say - that’s got a wee whiff of being sexist just as a starter for ten I’d say

I read that article wondering if it was satire in moments..

''comparing drag queens to blackface performers – it cynically reduces the historical crime of blackface to little more than a selfish, opportunistic political strategy. ''

.. so then being a drag queen is a selfish, opportunistic political strategy?

''Drag is not blackface. It is not based on depicting women as comically subhuman for the delight of the nation’s majority population''

... uhh... That's what drag seems to be exactly!

Anyway, turns out the article is not satire, the (white male) author is stating that women have no right to be offended by the overly sexual, grotesquely exagerrated expression of apparant womanhood.

This line for me really shows that this man has no fucking clue what he is talking about :

''Mom Strong are not victims of centuries of overt and covert and continuing discrimination at the hands of drag queens''

Drag queens are men. Yes, absolutely 'Mom Strong' aka WOMEN have had centuries and centuries of discrimination from men. What a fucking numpty.

Please answer how a man in drag acting out lovely woman doing charity work, is different from someone in blackface acting out a lovely black person doing charity work.

How are they different?

They are not. So if the drag queen version is in offensive then logically so is the black face. Shall we ask a black person how they feel about that.

OH NO wait, silly me! Let's ask a white man what he thinks shall we.

Interesting a white man has historically been the oppressor of both black people and women....

I feel the same way about this comparison as I do about Nancy Kelly comparing holding gender-critical beliefs to holding anti-Semitic beliefs - the two aren’t comparable and as both gender critical and Jewish, it was deeply offensive.

Blackface and the systematic social and political repression of black people are so inextricably linked that the very term “Jim Crow” - rigid anti-black segregation laws in force between the end of Reconstruction and the Civil Rights Movement - derives from an 1832 blackface minstrel number by Thomas D. Rice. Blackface in the US and its resulting dehumanization was utilised by white society as part of its moral and legal justification for violence, lynching and stats-sponsored killing of black people.

I have no liking at all for drag, I don’t think it’s funny or clever or kind; nor do I think it’s celebratory or embracing of women and feminist as many drag queens state. But I absolutely do not think it’s comparable to blackface.

FFS. Read that article as follows and see if it makes sense (really hope strike out works):

For decades and decades, on stages and then in movies, —white Americans— men —darkened their faces with burnt cork or shoe polish, exaggerated their features and mannerisms— painted their faces with garish cosmetics, donned brightly coloured polyester miniskirts and boob tubes over artificial hips and silicone implant breasts and pretended to be —black Americans— women – lazy, oafish, superstitious, sexually rapacious, illiterate, stupid, inferior —black Americans— women.

It was a direct outgrowth of the nation’s history of —slavery and racism— patriarchy a —white-supremacist— misogynistic reflection of a majority culture ridiculing the very people it was oppressing. It flourished in the years after —slavery was abolished— the Equality Act was introduced - a knee-jerk cultural reaction by —white Americans— men who were clearly uncomfortable with the social ramifications of —free black Americans— women’s liberation.

That is why —blackface— womanface remains so offensive today. It’s not just the —burnt cork— hideous makeup and clothing. It’s the history and context.

Stupid, sodding strikethrough never works for me but I think my poin5 still gets across.

I think 'blackface', for many of us, especially in the UK, does not just refer to one particular demographic usage in the US at one point in history, but refers to anyone at all 'blacking' themselves up for costume or for comedy.

I can think of some recent examples by white males who went to prestigious universities here. I can also think of times I have seen it myself on fancy dress nights out on my local town. These people are not at all linked or probably even aware of the Jim Crow era. They are simply putting on what they feel is a costume and making a mockery of it. It doesn't make it any less offensive.

In the last five years I've started to get annoyed by it. Pre that - I had always quite liked drag. Used to love Drag Race as always found it entertaining. But the Drag Queen story time didn't sit right.
For some of us, once we see the womanface aspect, we can't unsee it.

Yes people do it in Australia to denegrstr aboriginals - I have always thought of it as a global cross cultural occurrence

Where is dressing up as another culture acceptable anymore?

It's back to the what's the difference between identifying as a different race and identifying as a woman thing.

And also - if it's not the same then why do they keep going on about racial segregation and bathrooms as being the same.

Which is it?

@DifficultBloodyWoman

FFS. Read that article as follows and see if it makes sense (really hope strike out works):

For decades and decades, on stages and then in movies, —white Americans— men —darkened their faces with burnt cork or shoe polish, exaggerated their features and mannerisms— painted their faces with garish cosmetics, donned brightly coloured polyester miniskirts and boob tubes over artificial hips and silicone implant breasts and pretended to be —black Americans— women – lazy, oafish, superstitious, sexually rapacious, illiterate, stupid, inferior —black Americans— women.

It was a direct outgrowth of the nation’s history of —slavery and racism— patriarchy a —white-supremacist— misogynistic reflection of a majority culture ridiculing the very people it was oppressing. It flourished in the years after —slavery was abolished— the Equality Act was introduced - a knee-jerk cultural reaction by —white Americans— men who were clearly uncomfortable with the social ramifications of —free black Americans— women’s liberation.

That is why —blackface— womanface remains so offensive today. It’s not just the —burnt cork— hideous makeup and clothing. It’s the history and context.

Yes exactly this. I was reading it in the same way!

I don’t like womanface/ drag but think @ComtesseDeSpair has excellently communicated how black face has been a basic building block of racism whereas it’s just another component of sexism. I haven’t expressed that well, but would say neither are ok but nor are they directly equivalent.

I’m really heartened to see Spokane parents have had enough and are standing up against this. For the rest of the article it’s quite boggling and purposefully ignorant. Womanface is the last remaining blackface. There are no other groups for which it is acceptable to dress up and mock. It is one of the fronts in this war on women.

As a family we stayed at a holiday park in the late1980’s. There was a talent competition taking place that evening that several family members took part in.

My eldest brother dressed as Michael Jackson (with make up to darken his skin colour). He performed an MJ song. He was disqualified for “blacking up”.

My uncle performed a drag Queen act - complete with sparkly dress, tights, make up and wig. He won! 🤷🏻‍♀️

To answer your question OP, I guess anyone can pretend to be a woman. There are no holds barred.

Stupid, sodding strikethrough never works for me but I think my poin5 still gets across
The way you posted it is better than strikethrough.

Also, agree with your point 100%

God that article makes its own opposite argument. What a ghastly, misogynistic, pile of steaming tripe he writes.

@Francescaisstressed

www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/jun/12/dont-compare-drag-queens-to-blackfaced-minstrels/

Sums it up for me

Uh….

That article really isn’t the ‘mic drop’ moment you seem to think it is.

”If drag queens freak you out, you should at least not pretend it’s because you’re so dang woke.”

Drag queens don’t ‘freak me out’.

I’m veering towards uncomfortable with drag. On a night out, with adults - absolutely fine if that is what floats your boat. Reading to kids - nope, why on earth would any institution want to arrange this?

Drag, in and of itself, should not be an issue for those that enjoy it. But it should, IMO, be a choice made by adults - certainly not reading time with kids.

With regards to this thread, I’m really conflicted. I don’t like the comparison with blackface. As in, they are two separate “arguments”. It is not right to compare/latch on.

Women need to be able to stand up for what is right based on the fact that they are women - surely that’s enough! There should be no reason to compare it to blackface.

What’s happening to women isa travesty - and that needs to be called out every second you can. But comparing to blackface is wrong. We are all women - and should argue from that point only.

With the blackface (especially in the US) it is worth remembering that where women were portrayed it was frequently white men dressed up as black women and acting out quite unpleasant stereotypes. So there was a double whammy of racism AND deep misogyny going on.
Personally I don't feel comfortable with comparing it too closely with drag just because I think one thing TRAs do a lot is try to draw comparisons with racism. I always found that off-putting - and I don't want to make the same mistake. There are similarities, but I think you see those the most in the CONSTANT arguments of "if black women are women then so are trans-women" from the other side. I don't think we should feed that nonsense at all.
I also take the same approach to drag as I do to all comedy - if I don't like it I won't go to watch it (rather than threatening to protest, demanding it be cancelled, sending death threats etc). Who would do a thing like that....

I also think people worked so hard and for so long to make others understand why blackface is offensive and basically make it no longer acceptable on TV/comedy shows etc. There are still people who grumble its PC gone mad etc etc. I don't think its fair to risk undermining that work by hitching it to drag which is still socially acceptable (it might have the opposite effect to the one you hope) even though I do understand the comparison.