Womanface

[ExtraPlinky]

I'd like some of our visitors to explain the difference between blackface and womanface.

I am not white.
So please explain to me how you think it's different to pretend to be black comparing to pretending to be a woman.

05:24 namitynamechange

Isn't it blatantly obvious though, that blackface is now socially unacceptable because the target included men, taking the piss out of black men is clearly bad, but drag is taking the piss out of women some of whom are also black so why isn't this bad?

You've tied yourself in knots trying to justify why woman face is a different thing to blackface.
Why?
One of them is about women of any race, and one is both sexes of one race.

@Francescaisstressed

www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/jun/12/dont-compare-drag-queens-to-blackfaced-minstrels/

Sums it up for me

What that white bloke doesn't realise is that drag evolved out of mocking black male slaves dressed up as women on stage as a form of humiliating entertainment.

So it's roots are racist.

Honestly, I genuinely find the comparison between blackface and drag uncomfortable. I don't think it's the same thing. However, I found all your views interesting and I certainly think that I look upon drag more uncomfortably now.

There's no point comparing racism and misogyny while one of them is still socially acceptable

@ErrolTheDragon

It is not based on depicting women as comically subhuman for the delight of the nation’s majority population. It is not a vestige of a century of vigorous punching down by the powerful against the powerless.

Isn't it? Some of it looks pretty much like that. With sexual objectification thrown in for good measure.

Couldn't agree more. How is drag not ridiculing women? And since when haven't men been more powerful than women?

@Francescaisstressed

Honestly, I genuinely find the comparison between blackface and drag uncomfortable. I don't think it's the same thing. However, I found all your views interesting and I certainly think that I look upon drag more uncomfortably now.

I thought like you initially. But once you see it you can't unsee it. I think it was fine when transgenderism wasn't an umbrella term that suddenly meant that men were entitled to our spaces. Some gay guy dressing in drag was harmless, funny, camp entertainment. Sweet in some cases. Glam and bitchy and all about the fabulousness thanks to beautiful Rupaul.

But then drag queens reading books to primary school children... saying that men are women... grooming them into a lifetime of gender confusion... being told these men who dress as us ARE women. Rupaul being accused of being transphobic!

"Drag kids" an emaciated boy being paraded out as a drag kid in America.
And this - Drag Tots? Seriously.

https://www.wowpresentsplus.com/drag-tots?fbclid=IwAR24FjsorIM58-SdlKwxBtOb5j9TNREA1tQQ_8nyZjO0MEgdycrqNO7Oc

I used to think drag helped dismantle harmful cultural, misogynistic stereotypes and loved performers like Lily Savage, but now, when drag has never been more visible and everywhere, we are also, alongside it, seeing harmful sexist stereotypes pushed further than I've seen them in my lifetime, to the extent they are literally being carved into children's bodies. And the people on the Left who 20 years ago were horrified by American child beauty pageants and 35 years ago by TV shows like 'Minipops', and 45 years ago by beauty contests for adult women and The Black and White Minstrel Show, now think child drag, with all the adult, sexualised gestures, is wonderful.

What's the difference between drag and 'identifying as a woman', other than extra makeup and more outlandish clothes?

The former is parody of womenhood and the latter is colonisation of womanhood. Both are celebrated.

No other demographic other than women is so widely mocked and devalued, with it seen as a sign of progressiveness

Good points namity. I have never liked drag but that springs from finding pantomime dames frightening as a child. It is very popular on the Beeb, however, Drag Race is on BBC3 or later (around 10.30) I wondered why that was and suspect they know there are limits to how popular this is. Or is it just a young persons thing?

I am unsure how long a programme can last that is all about exaggerated hair and clothes. The drag artist's I've known personally didn't like women

I once mentioned that RuPaul's Drag Race was potentially like blackface, and questioned why men pretending to be women wasn't either sexist or even transphobic, I was banned immediately and the entire IP address was banned from the website too.

It was a Vox Media website and they are particularly woke.

Drag Race is on BBC3 or later (around 10.30) I wondered why that was and suspect they know there are limits to how popular this is

I was sitting down with a cup of tea watching the Winter Olympics earlier this morning. Guess who appeared to tell a figure-skating partnership (man and woman) how to look more ‘fabulous’ in their sparkly bling? Yup, two drag queens.

My signal to switch off.

It is not based on depicting women as comically subhuman for the delight of the nation’s majority population. It is not a vestige of a century of vigorous punching down by the powerful against the powerless

Errrmmm, isn't that EXACTLY what it is

That article didn't convince me in the slightest

apart from the majority bit

@Francescaisstressed

www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/jun/12/dont-compare-drag-queens-to-blackfaced-minstrels/

Sums it up for me

This article is total nonsense. “Drag isn’t ridiculing women” yes it is. Women are assaulted and killed the world over simply for being female. This man obviously doesn’t see any comparison with the abuse meted out to people for the colour of their skin, and the abuse meted out to female people for their sex.

@Zeugma

Drag Race is on BBC3 or later (around 10.30) I wondered why that was and suspect they know there are limits to how popular this is

I was sitting down with a cup of tea watching the Winter Olympics earlier this morning. Guess who appeared to tell a figure-skating partnership (man and woman) how to look more ‘fabulous’ in their sparkly bling? Yup, two drag queens.

My signal to switch off.

I switched over for that bit too. Totally unnecessary in Olympics coverage.

I am another one who wants to know that if other oppressed groups are able to define their views on their portrayal, why are women not given that same right?

Oh. That’s right. It is just women and some people find drag wonderful fun, so why should women spoil it.

The hypocrisy is clear.

@ExtraPlinky

In the last five years I've started to get annoyed by it. Pre that - I had always quite liked drag. Used to love Drag Race as always found it entertaining. But the Drag Queen story time didn't sit right. For some of us, once we see the womanface aspect, we can't unsee it.

This is exactly how I feel. I watched every season of RPDR and thought some of it was mildly amusing. But since I've become more and more involved in the shitshow that we are finding ourselves in, I really cannot stomach it. It most definitely does make fun of women. As you say, the "fish" references, the names some of them have (Minj / Ho/ etc), the ones that punch their own "breasts" as they dance, etc. I just can't unsee it anymore.

As I alluded to earlier - it is also a male single sex profession for all intents and purposes. When it comes to the definition of Drag Queen for some reason sex is allowed to remain entirely relevant.

Drag isn’t ridiculing women?

When there is a performer who ‘performs’ an abortion on stage? When names like Miss Carrie and Ana Bortion exist? When derogatory terms are used about women all the time.

Yet, males are telling us it is not ridiculing women in an attempt to gaslight and justify it. And of these are ‘edge’ acts, I have seen no attempt by prominent drag acts to call them out.

In fact, they come on Jimmy Carr shows and even do wafting actions over crotches when mentioning ‘fishy’.

Yeah. No. Nothing to see. It is all just good fun.

Did you know that the Beeb can tell when people tune out, or at least I think they can. This is now my strategy when some arse comes on, move channels and then move back after a few minutes.

They know this happens at the Oscars apparently when the stars start their emotional, political meanderings, views buzz off - massively

I think the main reasons I feel uncomfortable about the comparison are 1. Gay men probably aren't the enemy and have been oppressed by men just as women have

1. Women can reject outdated gender norms such as one length gowns 6 layers of make up and massive heels (and I think there is a genuine awareness that most of us have) whereas black people can reject their own skin colour and nor should they

*black people can't reject

@Linguini You misunderstand me, I agree there definitely are similarities. However, I think one of the ways in which the TRA movement makes itself really obvious is in the constant teaming/drawing comparisons to other civil rights type issues. At first that does get sympathy, especially when people don't really think it through properly. But once you see how constant it is it sort of undermines them as it shows that actually they don't have any arguments/legitimate reasons themselves to (eg) be in female bathrooms.
Whereas, if we are arguing that women's rights matter, it is because we think women have value in and of themselves - nothing to do with if X matters women should matter, if Y matters women should matter. So the argument is actually stronger (because its based in reality). I probably am not expressing myself properly however.

Plus, I think the more drag in particular is overdone the more cringey and uncool it becomes - and the harder it becomes to explain why a man in drag (how many drag queens see themselves) is NOT the same as someone who actually feels they are a woman inside.

I agree, it is adult entertainment/activity however (which is fine, lots of stuff is) and children really shouldn't be involved in it at all.

• I thought like you initially. But once you see it you can't unsee it. I think it was fine when transgenderism wasn't an umbrella term that suddenly meant that men were entitled to our spaces.*

This is exactly what happened to me. Used to think it was a bit of harmless fun. Now am positively offended about it. A few friends of mine have had drag-themed birthday parties recently and I can't face going because apart from anything else, I don't understand how woman can dress up in drag. They're already women ffs.

Misogyny and patriarchy remain part of the woodwork - and so many people have so little awareness of the position of women around the world - that the comparison sounds like a trivialisation of racism.

It's the epitome of unconscious bias.