Womanface

[ExtraPlinky]

I'd like some of our visitors to explain the difference between blackface and womanface.

I am not white.
So please explain to me how you think it's different to pretend to be black comparing to pretending to be a woman.

Also the men of my own culture will still abuse and rape women within that culture.

So even without the racism you will still get the sexism.

I'm so sorry to hear that Extra

It doesn’t matter anymore if womanface is like blackface or not.
Women are saying it’s insulting and saying no to drag.
Women are being far too kind. (and distracted)
Men are openly mocking women on primetime TV.
Men are going into women and children’s groups and mocking women to their children.
Everyone is laughing along.
Boundaries are being pushed and children are being groomed.
I’m insulted daily by advertising and tv.
How far will they push this until women fully stand up against it?

Iv never liked Drag, always found it offensive.
Even as a small child I cold see the ugly, graceless, bitchy, stupid, oversexed joke on stage was an insult to women.

Women can reject outdated gender norms such as one length gowns 6 layers of make up and massive heels …. whereas black people can’t reject their own skin colour and nor should they

But we are not raped, belittled, harassed, molested and killed by ex-partners because of our clothes or make-up. Men commit those crimes against us because we are female. We cannot change our sex any more than black people can change their colour.

Exactly?!

I can’t change my sex.

Of course drag can be offensive to women. But it shouldn't be and it isn't always, it's supposed to be a artistic expression. And who decided women get dresses and make up to claim as their own? Really we need them that much? I don't see dresses and make up as part of my identity. Also there are cultures where men wear dresses and face paint.

Mens treatment of women and white peoples treatment of black people are not like for like and it's abhorrent to compare the two.

@namitynamechange

I suppose the thing is, its impossible to say (with any credibility) "sexism is like racism" if you have only experienced sexism.

Why? If you say that drag is "womanface" then you are making a generalisation and claiming common features between sexism and racism. Why should this depend on subjective experience? Why are the only significant features of these phenomena subjective? If you are going to be able to deal with these problems in the public world, then they need to be identifiable in some consistent, generalisable way. You need to have a working definition of them in order to be able to deal with them. If you don't, then racism and sexism only exist in the minds of the oppressed. And you only know they are oppressed because they tell you so. You can do nothing to help except exactly what the oppressee tells you to do with complete, unquestioning, uncritical obedience. This is quite simply a surrender of the right - no, not the right, the duty - of making judgements about and taking responsibility for, your own actions.

You have women saying that the pain at the way they are treated for being Black is greater than the pain they feel at the way they are treated as a woman. This is an experience and needs to be accepted as such, but even in its own terms it binds no one else. You cannot then go on and make a generalisation, saying that since my experience of A is worse than my experience of B, then B is consistently less painful.

Generalisations require observable criteria, and it appears to me that there are quite a few parallels between blackface and "womanface". These include the misrepresentation of another group for your own benefit, the systematic insults, the reduction of another group's characteristics to a few grotesquely exaggerated cliches, the contemptuous dismissal from a position of power - there are many.

@autienotnaughty

Of course drag can be offensive to women. But it shouldn't be and it isn't always, it's supposed to be a artistic expression. And who decided women get dresses and make up to claim as their own? Really we need them that much? I don't see dresses and make up as part of my identity. Also there are cultures where men wear dresses and face paint.

Mens treatment of women and white peoples treatment of black people are not like for like and it's abhorrent to compare the two.

I am one of the many who has enjoyed drag in the past, but is increasingly uncomfortable. Most important to me is the intellectual exercise (becaue I want to know the extent I should be anti-drag and anti-the idea that it is OK for men to play at being women] and I just can't get past MY inability to understand how blackface is significantly (or at all) different / worse than womanface. To take your points in turn.

Drag can be offensive to women. Obviously drag artists should only do non-misogynistic acts and be artistic. But we live in the real world and many are offensive and not artistic. Also womanface includes Trans Identifying Males and they are not even pretending it is art. Also, IMO (and I am not black), it seems to me that "blackface" is not by definition offensive. I would be astonished if there are not occasions when blacking up is fine (perhaps in the context of a play where the whole point is to show how offensive a character is when he blacks up). I think blackface and womanface and jokes about race all fit into the same category - things that the simple advice for 99.9999% of people is "don't do it, ever", but occasionally, very occasionally, a very talented person with good intent can do it is a way which is entertaining or informative or beneficial.

There is a difference between wearing a dress and makeup and deliberately trying to look like a stereotype of a woman. Did Kurt Cobain wear dresses and make-up? Yes. Did he ever look like a woman or like he was trying to look like a woman? No.

Men's treatment of women and white peoples treatment of black people are not like for like [no but there are parallels I believe] and it's abhorrent to compare the two [easy to say but harder to actually justify using facts, logical, reason and compassion. Why is it abhorrent to compare to two?]

@JustSpeculation Well, for one thing, sexism/misogyny at its worse is closely tied to the idea that men's rights to sexual enjoyment/reproductive rights/women's bodies supersedes all else. (That isn't the only aspect of sexism but its the root I think). Therefore women are dehumanised, and demonized if they object to this. Other races are dehumanised/demonized too sometimes for the same reasons (rights to other peoples bodies) but sometimes for different reasons (although of course where racism and sexism intersect it becomes harder to pull the strands apart.). Purely concentrating on comparing it to racism risks missing the root cause of sexism in my opinion because it ends up piggy backing of other analysis. It is how the (very sensible) idea of intersectionality became corrupted into the nonsense it is today. Lots of people have strong motivations to distract women from the root causes of sexism but it is really important to emphasize that body autonomy and women's boundaries will always be the real battleground.

But also - getting into arguments about whether racism or sexism are worse is pointless because it plays into the other sides hands. We don't need to choose between one or the other - they are both bad and often both impact on women. There are similarities and differences in the causes, and the mechanisms. Its can be useful to think about those. But "you wouldn't be racist so you shouldn't be sexist" isn't likely to convince those who aren't already convinced even though maybe it should.

and also to @ExtraPlinky and thanks for starting the thread.

@namitynamechange

Excellent points and I agree. I think we're talking about two different things though. I'll come back properly when I'm home from work.

"But also - getting into arguments about whether racism or sexism are worse is pointless because it plays into the other sides hands. We don't need to choose between one or the other - they are both bad and often both impact on women. " Agree with that 100%.

One thing I wanted to add was the origins of blackface and womanface, or rather the perception of their origins. It seems to me that the biggest difference is that people perceive (correctly I think) that blackface is intrinsically linked to an explicitly racist society due to blackface's origins, where womanface is seen as intrinsically linked to criminalized gay men making counter-cultural entertainment and harmless fun / comedy / light entertainment. Womanface's origins clearly go back a long way further (so the perception is wrong) and surely the important thing is TODAY, and today it seems to me that there is no reason that womanface isn't treated like blackface, with the possible exception being "blackface is a little worse". But that only means crack down harder on blackface, it doesn't mean not cracking down hard on womanface.

I don't think they are the same, but there are parallels. I think there is an acceptable side of drag, which is that it creates a community for gay people who want to express a side of themselves that is seen as unacceptable for men to show. That doesn't exist for blackface.

But I agree that when it's mocking or parodying women it's offensive. I would compare it to myself joining an African drumming group as a white person. If I wanted to enjoy different music, dancing etc and make friends with like-minded people then that's ok but obviously if I gave myself a stereotyped African stage name that would be offensive.

@HotPenguin

I don't think they are the same, but there are parallels. I think there is an acceptable side of drag, which is that it creates a community for gay people who want to express a side of themselves that is seen as unacceptable for men to show. That doesn't exist for blackface. But I agree that when it's mocking or parodying women it's offensive. I would compare it to myself joining an African drumming group as a white person. If I wanted to enjoy different music, dancing etc and make friends with like-minded people then that's ok but obviously if I gave myself a stereotyped African stage name that would be offensive.

I think we need some definitions.

To me womanface is anyone male who is pretending to be female or parodying women (and arguably all men who pretend to be women are parodying them), whether that is drag or transvestite or transgender or transsexual (not that transsexual is even a real thing because changing sex is impossible). Presenting as feminine is not the same thing as pretending to be female, and policing the boundaries would be a nightmare.

To me blackface is anyone putting on make-up to look like non-white when you are white.

I think that the acceptable side of drag belongs in the past. It had a role when gay men were criminalized and being androgynous or feminine was complete unacceptable for most men. It does not belong in the modern world.

Can anyone explain what is fundamentally different about a man who pretends to be a woman to entertain himself and others on stage under the "drag" banner and a man who pretends to a woman for his own benefit off stage? Other than some in the latter came have some sort of mental health issue that might be dysphoria or might be closer to a fetish. Perhaps trans women (at least those with mental health diagnoses) could be considered rather like someone with Tourettes who swear - it is tolerated and accepted because they can't help it, but it's not right and it is certainly not to be celebrated.

Rachel Dozeal - I find it hard to believe that her "racial dysphoria" is significantly less real than any trans woman's "gender dysphoria". I also believe that someone brought up by and with black people, and who darkens their skin and curls their hair in order to change how others see them, has a considerably better insight into being black than any man has to being a woman. And given that Rachel Dozeal quite probably is mixed race if you actually look at her family tree, she may well be 0.1% black which gives her infinitely more right to identify as a black person than any man on earth, every single one of which is 100% male.

I recently watch some old Reeves and Mortimer. Vic Reeves in blackface, but sorry, I couldn't find it offensive... just far too silly to be regarded as offensive, and didn;t seem to be playing to any racist tropes, just the character was a ludicrous one, made more ludicrous because of the stupid blackface skin tone Reeves was wearing. Note - I don't think Vic Reeves should ever do it again, or that it was a good idea in the first place. Maybe some drag acts are so utterly ridiculous and in no way realistic or playing to stereotypes?

Logically transracialism makes infinitely more sense than transgenderism, not least as race is "not a thing" (we are all humans, there is no fundemental difference that makes different races different) and "a spectrum" (some people are mixed race, and those can be anywhere on a spectrum not simply 50/50) as much as it is a social construct. Whereas gender is 100% social construct and sex is 100% binary and unchangeable.

I genuinely can't see any difference other than in a patriarchal world we have acknowledged that mocking black people and appropriating their culture is 100% wrong, whereas that same patriarchal world is quite happy to mock women and appropriate their experiences.

Like many trans issues I try to keep an open mind. I am willing to be proven wrong, but the closest I have to proof I am wrong is that some black people say that the racist element of blackface is much worse, but given others disagree I am still left stuck.

@ExtraPlinky

I'm mixed race and mostly Indian/Pakistani -

I experience racism and sexism

The racism will be people calling me names.
The sexism has involved men raping me.

So for me the sexism is worse. It's going to be subjective of course.

Sorry to hear that. I think it is true for the vast majority of women and girls in the world - and outside of academic theory - that the practical consequences of patriarchy, misogyny and sexism are significantly more immediate, extensive, and severe.

Seeing patriarchy as a trivial thing, or something that is secondary to other power relations and identities, can seem like an unconscious privilege of middle class western circles.

From a British perspective (talking generally and talking about the debates that are had in the media and on social media) I think it might be true that our perceptions of racism are significantly influenced by the history of US race relations, or at the very least influenced by black British voices (often male) who are well aware of the history of slavery and the history or race relations in the USA. Whereas our perceptions of sexism are from a white English middle class perspective, mainly a woman's perspective but plenty of men have their say too.

It would be interesting to know how this debate would be seen in a country where the victims of racism were not black and were not particularly influenced by the US experience, and the feminist voices were much more varied by reference to class, wealth and race.

On this video Sheila Jefferys talks about how women can learn from the battles of blackface to tackle womanface.

I see womanface as an extension of the colonisation of womanhood and do not adscribe it just to drag.

Many will object to the comparison but as it has pointed out there are communalities that need to be highlighted and exposed.

I don’t agree 100% with Sheila, but have lots of respect for her analysis: