Womanface

[ExtraPlinky]

I'd like some of our visitors to explain the difference between blackface and womanface.

I am not white.
So please explain to me how you think it's different to pretend to be black comparing to pretending to be a woman.

Comparing womanface to blackface in my opinion is like comparing a the pain from a paper cut to the pain of having your head sawn off with a rusty saw. It's not even remotely similar.

@VladmirsPoutine

Comparing womanface to blackface in my opinion is like comparing a the pain from a paper cut to the pain of having your head sawn off with a rusty saw. It's not even remotely similar.

Interesting. Can you explain why you feel like that?

The reasons women here give why they feel it is comparable and society should not see it as ok, are valid. As women they have the right to express their feelings. Anyone disagreeing should be able to explain that as well.

@VladmirsPoutine

Comparing womanface to blackface in my opinion is like comparing a the pain from a paper cut to the pain of having your head sawn off with a rusty saw. It's not even remotely similar.

This is the sort of trivialisation I had in mind...

In short @sanluca I feel it trivialises, demeans and reduces racism. I'm black (well mixed race more specifically) and it's my view that all the discrimination I have ever faced has been the result of my blackness. Being called a 'bitch' or whatever doesn't phase me even a little bit - being called an n-word, however, can throw off my whole sense of self for ages at a time. I also think that white women have been perpetrators of abuse and violence towards black women for time immemorial. They can and do wield their proximity to white patriarchy to uphold their position within the power dynamic.

Thing is being black can be extremely mentally and emotionally exhausting, you spend an awful lot of time hyper-conscious of your blackness. Racism does really ruin someone's mental health. Black women put themselves through agony to try and appear 'presentable' to adhere to certain standards among a host of all other things.

I think on Mumsnet threads which involve elements of race are almost always going to be wayward, c.f. 'Karen' threads. But I try not to get too involved as everyone needs their 'safe space' and as a platform for white women and their concerns / lives this forum serves that purpose amazingly well.

Vladimir, I see where you are coming from and for you that are your feelings and your opninion. But for others this is different. Their feelings and opinion matter as well and being treated as second class citizens, harrassed or assaulted because of your sex can also destroy your feelings of self worth and your life. And unlike race, women are not allowed to object, discuss or fight for improvement in their lives at the moment.

Women can have the opinion that it is strange blackface is condemned in society and womanfacr is celebrated. But way to go to divide women based on race.

But way to go to divide women based on race.

Yup. This is exactly the type of response you tend to get hence not bothering explaining.

Imo drag is "femininity-face" (taken to extreme distortions obviously), not "woman-face".

There's not much one can do to make your face look female. Female people have all sorts of faces.
(Whereas I would say you could make yourself look actively "male" with stubble, etc)

You can make your face look "feminine".

I really think it's important to not conflate feminine and female. Although in some areas (medical terminology etc) they do overlap.

I was pretty upset yesterday when the drag queens appeared during Winter Olympic coverage. It was just so unexpected, a bit of an ambush during sport fgs. I turned over and complained to the BBC.

I suppose the thing is, its impossible to say (with any credibility) "sexism is like racism" if you have only experienced sexism. Likewise I can't insist "woman face is as bad as blackface" if I have only felt the impact of one not the other. So although I think comparing the two could seem like a useful rhetorical technique to make people see it differently, I think direct comparisons aren't a very honest way of talking about the issue and I don't think they should be necessary. If a case is worth making it should be worth making on its own merit if that makes sense. It also, as @VladmirsPoutine has pointed out risks trivialising racism and insulting people who have experienced it. Which is the last thing we should be doing.

Its one of the things I hate about the TRA hitching their cause to feminism, to gay rights, to black civil rights. I know their intention is to further their own cause. My fear is that instead they will pull all the other causes down with them.

@VladmirsPoutine

But way to go to divide women based on race.

Yup. This is exactly the type of response you tend to get hence not bothering explaining.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't

And if black face is socially unacceptable now (it still isn't in my country which is a whole other thing), its because mostly black people spent a lot of time, and effort for years trying to explain why, campaigning, etc etc etc. It wasn't just that people woke up one day and decided racism was bad so let not do it anymore (and I know there is still racism, but in the context of black face). Misogyny, sexism, rape culture are the same - the only way to reduce it is to fight it on its own terms (and luckily there are lots of people on this board and elsewhere doing just that). But we need as many hands on deck as possible.

I think the reason Vladimirs posts get my hackles up is that, even though OP is a person of colour and feels it is comparable, when women agree or discuss they get told off. To me this attitude feels the same as when women get told not to make a big deal about men in womens prisons or sports but fix poverty, world hunger and climate change first.

No. It is ok to discuss womens issues and whether drag and black face are comparable. You don't have to agree but don't dismiss people's feelings as being a 'white womens forum' and therefore whatever your opinion is, is the only valid one. It is divisive and stops people listening to what you are trying to say.

I agree with Namity, I think women are right to question why blackface is now socially unacceptable and how do we convince society drag should also be debated. Is it the same? I actually don't think so. I think drag, rape culture and the objectification and commoditization of womens bodies should become just as socially unnaceptable as what BLM is fighting for with racism and blackface as an example of that.

I don't think my opinion is the only valid one. I spoke about my own experiences. I find the angst around womanface bemusing if anything, similarly to how I find it bemusing when my toddler niece is beside herself about wanting to go to the park but won't sit still long enough to let anyone put her shoes on her to go.

It's more than 'femininity face' because we can't exactly opt out of having breasts or becoming pregnant and potentially miscarrying or seeking an abortion. All things that drag queens mock.

I do understand, but again - black people (and other groups) also faced (and face) a lot of resistance when they wanted to talk about or fight racism. If there is more conversation around racism now its because people kept talking when they were told to shut up/not to make a big deal out it. That's what women need to do :) (and again luckily lots of us are good at it).
But while I think its tempting to say "if you wouldn't do X you shouldn't do Y" I don't think its a good persuasive technique - the only people it would work on are likely to be people already in that mindset - like the OP who already feels that the woman-face thing is bad and has drawn the connection themselves. Or Dave Chapelle's audience actually.
Plus some of the most virulent sexists are also kinda racist (including the secret ones on the left) - so they would just ignore it anyway.

But Ill be honest, personally I care less about drag comedy than I do about women being raped in prisons, safeguarding issues in schools, over prescription of puberty blockers etc. I know sometimes it looks as if drag is used to normalise the rest, but if you focus too much on that it looks like that's the biggest problem and its easier to dismiss (like if Vladmir's niece was tantruming about putting their shoes on but actually had a broken leg or something).
Doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it/start threads on it. But there is no point (IMO) falling out over it

Sexual objectification is, at its core, a form of humiliation in itself because it originates from female oppression. It is mixed notions of both provocativeness (whore) and innocence (virgin), frigidity (whore in waiting) and promiscuousness. It is every manifestation of ourselves hijacked as intended for males. It basically isn’t about us at all. It’s a power tool, so any art form based in this, not least performed by a man, has difficulty escaping the idea that it’s deeply humiliating.

I see drag as one is of the many examples used by men to belittle and mock women. It is punching down. But it is not the one I get up in arms about.

The opinion that women shouldn't discuss any paralels between drag and blackface because they might be white with the underlying opinion racism is worse so focus on that, now that pisses me off.

Why is drag not only acceptable but celebrated in society? How do we start a discussion about the treatment of one group of people because of a shared trait that involves not only making fun of that trait but also to abuse and insult?

@FiftyStoriesHigh

Sexual objectification is, at its core, a form of humiliation in itself because it originates from female oppression. It is mixed notions of both provocativeness (whore) and innocence (virgin), frigidity (whore in waiting) and promiscuousness. It is every manifestation of ourselves hijacked as intended for males. It basically isn’t about us at all. It’s a power tool, so any art form based in this, not least performed by a man, has difficulty escaping the idea that it’s deeply humiliating.

Agree with that! I think also, because (as well as power) its tied to men's sexual enjoyment one way or another (maybe less so with drag, but especially with the 3 letter word, and porn etc) it is seen as a right by some in a way that other forms of objectification aren't. I think that culture, that puts men's sexual rights above other rights, is what the conversation really needs to be about. But its a very awkward conversation.

@namitynamechange Yes, exactly how pornography is seen as some kind of right despite perpetrating (no less actually chemically and hormonally conditioning the body to respond to) violence, coercion and underage “sex”. Except it’s not sex. It’s violence repacked as sex and intimacy. And it’s worked because it was already so deeply steeped in misogyny and hatred of women.

@Francescaisstressed

www.spokesman.com/stories/2019/jun/12/dont-compare-drag-queens-to-blackfaced-minstrels/

Sums it up for me

That’s all written from the viewpoint of a white man. Fair, enough, because the author is a white man.

But it is scathing and demeaning about women who object to drag culture and its permeation into everyday life.

He totally denies that the negative associations drag culture makes about women has an effect. Well, he would, wouldn’t he? Not being a woman. Not having a mind open enough to realise that parodys can be purposefully vicious, can deliberately put down the subject of the parody as an integral part of the act.

He is not affected by drag and refuses to acknowledge why any woman would do so.

Just think - 60 years the USA had direct discrimination against its black citizens. Things have changed a lot in that time. Sadly, some people refuse to believe that prejudice has many forms.

@VladmirsPoutine

In short *@sanluca* I feel it trivialises, demeans and reduces racism. I'm black (well mixed race more specifically) and it's my view that all the discrimination I have ever faced has been the result of my blackness. Being called a 'bitch' or whatever doesn't phase me even a little bit - being called an n-word, however, can throw off my whole sense of self for ages at a time. I also think that white women have been perpetrators of abuse and violence towards black women for time immemorial. They can and do wield their proximity to white patriarchy to uphold their position within the power dynamic.

Thing is being black can be extremely mentally and emotionally exhausting, you spend an awful lot of time hyper-conscious of your blackness. Racism does really ruin someone's mental health. Black women put themselves through agony to try and appear 'presentable' to adhere to certain standards among a host of all other things.

I think on Mumsnet threads which involve elements of race are almost always going to be wayward, c.f. 'Karen' threads. But I try not to get too involved as everyone needs their 'safe space' and as a platform for white women and their concerns / lives this forum serves that purpose amazingly well.

Framing misogyny and patriarchy as “being called a bitch or whatever” seems to trivialise it. Women are treated like cattle in much of the world - tokens for male kinship groups who treat rape as a property crime and femicide as punishment for any perceived offence to male pride.

This easily slips out of the mind of many in the rich democracies, who have also lost sight of the scale of sex-selective abortion and infanticide, bride prices, rape as a weapon of war, early marriage for girls, polygamy, and the enforced legality of domestic abuse.

To say that comparisons with blackface trivialise racism is, I feel, to trivialise the deep hatred of women that contaminates everything yet is so readily placed just out of our line of vision.

The opinion that women shouldn't discuss any paralels between drag and blackface because they might be white with the underlying opinion racism is worse so focus on that, now that pisses me off.

Yes. The binary nature of the argument.

Sexism isn’t as bad as racism. Therefore women should just put up with sexism.

I'm mixed race and mostly Indian/Pakistani -

I experience racism and sexism

The racism will be people calling me names.
The sexism has involved men raping me.

So for me the sexism is worse. It's going to be subjective of course.