Why surrogacy should be banned

[DomesticatedZombie]

• article from Stefanie Bode.

'It’s always harmful. It harms our health, it exploits our bodies; it’s dependent on global inequalities and makes them worse; it violates our dignity, our physical integrity and many others of our human rights. It is a form of slavery (of women and children), and obviously it’s violence against women and children. It makes babies into commodities. It’s very cruel and inhumane to women and babies to separate a baby from its mother. '

www.filia.org.uk/latest-news/2022/2/8/why-surrogacy-should-be-banned

Depending on the country from where you log onto MN, you may be targeted with ads for surrogacy or egg donation. If you are short on cash, you can get $14K for donating you eggs. If you have blue or green eyes, blonde or light hair, athletic, smart, and have a 'sweet personality' your eggs are needed.

How anyone can exploit a young woman like this is beyond my comprehension.

@Delphinium20 it’s worse in the UK because egg donors don’t get paid. You get all sorts of egg donation agencies begging young women to consider giving a “gift” to another family, tugging on the heart strings of women with not enough experience of life to know the risks but very keen to do something altruistic.

Having been through IVF, there’s no way I’d risk egg collection if I didn’t have to. I ended up with sepsis on one occasion and this was with a very good clinic that I still rate for their care & expertise.

It’s worse because the egg donation agencies go on to charge large sums - in the thousands - for six or twelve eggs, whilst the donors get nothing.

@NotBadConsidering I’m aware she is legally. I thought you were more saying it was ‘morally’ wrong to say that a surrogate isn’t the mother, which is why I said what I said. Apologies, I miss understood you.

And yes, for the mother, that was my point. I was under the impression that in the case of adoption where the mother does not want a baby/child to be adopted it is such a difficult decision and has to be approved by a judge because of the impact it will have on the child and the mother. Whereas, and I might be wrong, if a woman wishes to give her baby up for adoption and multiple professionals have agreed that is her genuine wish then that is what would happen regardless of whether it is in the best interest of the baby? So it’s only a difficult decision (for judges/professionals, not for the mother of course) if it’s an unwilling adoption.

I know very little about adoption though, so I might be completely wrong. I had just hoped that if a woman genuinely wished to put a baby up for adoption then she would be able to do that without too many obstacles.

I took DD for a uni open day when she was considering going into midwifery (pre Covid) @OhHolyJesus and they showed a similar breast crawl video.
We could send questions via a wifi link to the whiteboard and I couldn't resist a snarky question about the value of skin to skin contact with fathers and was rather pleased when the tutor said there was none. Those men be they ordinary fathers or commissioning parents who strip off and clutch the baby to them are very irritating imo and I'm sure the babies find it even more irritating given the absence of breast milk or the smell of its mother.

[quote Porridgeislife]@Delphinium20 it’s worse in the UK because egg donors don’t get paid. You get all sorts of egg donation agencies begging young women to consider giving a “gift” to another family, tugging on the heart strings of women with not enough experience of life to know the risks but very keen to do something altruistic.

Having been through IVF, there’s no way I’d risk egg collection if I didn’t have to. I ended up with sepsis on one occasion and this was with a very good clinic that I still rate for their care & expertise.[/quote]
I'm so sorry for what you went through.

God, that's just awful - making a young woman put herself at such risk. It's wrong to pay them, it's wrong to manipulate them to do it for free...it's just wrong all around.

Those adverts are exactly what we in the U.K. will be seeing on Mumsnet @Delphinium20 if the law is changed to allow advertising.

We are egg donors website has some interesting blogs.

Here is one from a woman who had an ectopic pregnancy immediately after her previous donation cycle and it is possible this was directly connected to egg donation. Of course no one had counselled her about this and as egg donors aren't routinely followed up there is no research to confirm or exclude this risk.

www.weareeggdonors.com/blog/egg-donor-ectopic

And here is a photo blog. That poor girl, she tries to be upbeat through her tears.

Of course she had OHSS - in so far as she didn't end up in ICU it would probably be classified as "mild".
And she is left feeling guilty for refusing to do this again as other buyers are keen for her eggs.

www.weareeggdonors.com/blog/photo-essay

On the subject of egg harvesting/donating gametes. This is a genuine post from a FB group (I'm not actually in this group, a friend sent to me as part of a discussion about Big Fertility and Eggsploitation, a film by Jennifer Lahl.)

@Comedycook

Is it cold to not understand something?

You cannot understand how an infant has a bond with its mother?

Have you ever seen an animal give birth?

I never said an infant wouldn't have a bond, I specifically asked about recognising the voice and smell as I don't understand how that can work.

I never said an infant wouldn't have a bond, I specifically asked about recognising the voice and smell as I don't understand how that can work

I think it's probably one of those things that is so innate and primal, we cannot explain it in very clear, logical terms. We are only animals at the end of the day and nature is pretty clever!

@MrsTerryPratchett

Is it cold to not understand something?

Do you understand THAT it happens, even if you don't know HOW? The science is clear that outcomes are improved by not cutting the cord early, skin to skin, breastmilk. They prefer their mother's voice. Babies have personalities immediately, just after birth. Studies, not reckons.

The baby can't hear the mother's voice in the womb, it will be distorted. They can't smell the mother in the womb, obviously they can when they are born if they are given straight to her.

If there is a bond before birth it can't be voice and smell.

If there is a bond before birth it can't be voice and smell.

Voice is felt through vibrations as well as it heard via sound waves, as is her heartbeat

Can you not hear sound underwater? It doesn't need to be crystal clear, tones and pace are identifiable.

How do you think deaf newborns know his or her mother? Smell follows after birth but taste is via shared fluids prior to birth.

The studies I shared will help to explain, though there is only so much we can understand, the third trimester and the environment inside the womb is pretty difficult for anyone other than foetuses to understand and long term memory hasn't so far to be proven to go back that far.

WTF @OhHolyJesus
Isn't that incest?
And apart from anything else to even consider putting your own daughter through the egg donation process.

What is CNY by the way?

Interesting views and a lot to think of! What about embryos being sold to infertile couples to carry and birth?

@LifeIsAGameYouCannotWin

Interesting views and a lot to think of! What about embryos being sold to infertile couples to carry and birth?

I think that is wrong, honestly don't understand it one bit.

What is CNY by the way?

It's a chain of clinics in the US.

I thought it was a good example of how the women had disconnected from their bodies. The 18 yo daughter thinks nothing of giving her mum her eggs, presumably as they came from her she is just 'returning some she doesn't need' and the mother doesn't reject this offer but wishes to explore it because her child is an extension of her and so she still has some rights to the eggs she gave her?

It's a weird world view to have, where the eggs inside you are not part of you but they are what connects you to family abs can be shared around like passing the potatoes at dinner? I don't know, I can't comprehend it.

I remember the Barrie/Barry Drewitt Barlow discussing the offer of his surrogate-born daughter Saffron's eggs for him and his boyfriend to have another new surrogate baby. His acceptance or rejection of her eggs for more future children is yet to be decided I think.

As an aside, I've noticed another theme or line of conversation around egg donation - it seems there is the idea that 'your not using them' so someone else 'might as well' have them. Is it careless for women to have periods and be simply washing or throwing away these valuable eggs that someone could be using?

I'm not using the strands of hair I shed daily or my toenail clippings but I don't suppose anyone can make much use of these...

I remember talking to a Chinese lady who was very smug about paying someone to carry her baby as she didn't want to put her own body through that. Sounds like a story from a film but I talked to her myself. She went to a gynecological visit and said that she expects a baby in a month and she was size 0. Then explained that she is far too busy with her business to carry the baby herself. Anyway there will be these people if commercial surrogacy continues. I also know a wealthy couple who cannot carry their own children and had a child from surrogacy that will inherit all their wealth and they cannot be happier. That said I have no clue who the surrogate mother is apart of that she is from Ukraine. Ethics is often a controversial and complex issue.

Talking of Ukraine I fear things will be very bad for surrogate mothers and their babies now.
During the early days of the coronavirus pandemic we saw dozens of babies stranded, cared for in hotels as commissioning parents were unable to collect them. Then it all went a bit quiet. Who knows if they all got collected or if some CPs just decided it was all too difficult. Especially those from Australia or New Zealand who simply haven't been able to travel for the past two years.
Now there are fears of war. I heard on the radio while I was driving to work that USA is withdrawing some diplomatic staff and families of staff from the embassy. U.K. foreign office advice is to leave Ukraine now while it is still possible.
There are an estimated 3000 surrogate babies born for international clients each year in Ukraine - maybe more, I don't think anyone is keeping a count. So about 57 a week. Don't tell me there aren't unclaimed babies stacked up somewhere, because there will be.
I fear many will never be collected or will be sold.
The sorts of situations @TurquoiseBaubles mentioned upthread.
Perhaps some of these women will be trafficked abroad to have their babies outside Ukraine.
If anyone is working in midwifery in U.K. they should be alert to new arrivals - I heard on the grapevine two years ago that some women were being brought from overseas to deliver within the private system and it was causing safeguarding issues if they needed to be transferred over to the NHS. It's quite possible that some of these women will arrive in the U.K.

Just another reason for banning surrogacy.

One of many articles that appeared in the summer of 2020 for those who missed it at the time.

I've really not heard anything since and have no idea how many of those babies were claimed or when. Does anyone else know more?

I am aware of several cases in the USA of babies that have been stranded for a year before collection. There is a surrogate mother who has been posting on TikTok recently who has twins that are around a year old and she is now consulting lawyers with a view to keeping them as of course she is bonded with them and the commissioning parents haven't arrived to collect them. There must be babies in Ukraine that are over a year old still awaiting collection or maybe just dumped in an orphanage or who have been sold on.

www.nytimes.com/2020/05/16/world/europe/ukraine-coronavirus-surrogate-babies.amp.html

@LifeIsAGameYouCannotWin

Interesting views and a lot to think of! What about embryos being sold to infertile couples to carry and birth?

Back when I was doing IVF (in the 90s) there was a great industry in asking couples going for IVF to donate "unused" embryos to offset the cost of the treatment. At the time, freezing of embryos was in its infancy (and in fact illegal in Ireland), so couples were told that if they donated excess embryos that they wouldn't be "wasted" and in return they would have their cost covered.

This led to the hypothetical situation where a poor couple would have a failed ivf cycle and go home without a baby, while at the same time another (more than likely "rich", in that they could afford to pay full whack) couple would receive their donated embryo and take that baby home. The anguish of the infertile couple knowing that somewhere out there might be a baby that was genetically theirs while they didn't have a child themselves is heartbreaking.

It was sold as an embryo sharing situation, and the pressure put on couples who couldn't afford treatment any other way was appalling.

Sorry, the situation was not hypothetical - it was the real outcome for many couples back then.

I've heard about the 'adoption' of embryos, you can even put your embryos up for adoption on Facebook.

https://people.com/human-interest/what-its-like-to-put-an-unused-ivf-embryo-for-adoption/

The only stories like this I've read come from the US, I've seen it in framed in terms of 'souls' being 'abandoned' and religious and emotive language being tied into science and medical procedures, but you can just give them to your friends...

https://www.insider.com/3-friends-1-set-of-embryos-created-families-without-men-2021-1

Again, like 'unused' eggs, no one was using these embryos, they are just sitting there, taking up freezer space

so couples were told that if they donated excess embryos that they wouldn't be "wasted" and in return they would have their cost covered.

This is similar to egg sharing, where discounts are financial incentives to giving away some of the eggs that are retrieved when doing your own IVF.

I always wonder if the good quality eggs are used for your own ivf or if the eggs collected are equally split out so to give equal chance to yourself and the person who you eventually share your eggs with, or even if their dosage of drugs is increased to boost the chance of collecting more than your average number of eggs...and if that happens are your chances of suffering with OHSS are increased.

Financial incentives around any of this (infertility, donor conception, surrogacy, etc) puts the practice on shaky moral ground IMO.

I don't think it should be banned.

But I think ALL form of financial recompense - including for expenses - should be banned completely. No covering medical bills, loss of earnings, NOTHING.

Then if secure, financially stable women want to be a surrogate purely out of the goodness of their heart, good for them.