Why surrogacy should be banned

[DomesticatedZombie]

• article from Stefanie Bode.

'It’s always harmful. It harms our health, it exploits our bodies; it’s dependent on global inequalities and makes them worse; it violates our dignity, our physical integrity and many others of our human rights. It is a form of slavery (of women and children), and obviously it’s violence against women and children. It makes babies into commodities. It’s very cruel and inhumane to women and babies to separate a baby from its mother. '

www.filia.org.uk/latest-news/2022/2/8/why-surrogacy-should-be-banned

For those not fully informed on surrogacy and everything that goes on, this thread is great - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4440005-To-not-understand-the-issue-with-surrogacy

@whataboutlove
@theleafandnotthetree

I'm in Ireland and have heard a lot of negative press re surrogacy. Anyway, the legal situation in Ireland is finally being addressed now it seems -

www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/officials-warn-against-double-standard-on-commercial-surrogacy-1.4786522

Healthy women who have previously got pregnant the natural way with no problems get sucked into surrogacy and are shocked to find out what the process of "gestational" surrogacy involves.

And don't forget, unless there is a commissioning mother who is able to supply an egg, a SECOND woman has to go through all this and put her health at risk to provide eggs.

53 shots in stomach
92 shots in butt
102 oestrogen patches

Patriot Conceptions is a US surrogacy agency that targets military wives. Take a look at their Instagram. It's shocking.

Our Military Wives choir could look very different if the law is changed to allow advertising in the U.K. as happens elsewhere.

[quote BessieFinknottle]@whataboutlove
@theleafandnotthetree

I'm in Ireland and have heard a lot of negative press re surrogacy. Anyway, the legal situation in Ireland is finally being addressed now it seems -

www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/officials-warn-against-double-standard-on-commercial-surrogacy-1.4786522[/quote]
That's good to see. I just haven't come across the negative commentary that you mention, I stand by my feeling that most mainstream media coverage is of the 'isn't this wonderful, they get to build their family, the surrogates are angels' variety. I normally like Ryan Tubridy but he is one of the worst offenders.

@IamAporcupine

However one friend asked me if I was against surrogacy, did that include gay men? I repeatedly stated that I was against ALL surrogacy...she said it may be their only chance to have a baby.

I never understand this argument. So what if it is their only chance? Why is it a woman's "responsability" to fullfil this desire?

Has she not heard about adoption?

Same sex couples have been able to adopt for some time in the U.K. - was your friend from a country with a homophobic history and discriminatory laws?

@theleafandnotthetree
@BessieFinknottle

That interesting. I have only seen the the happy stories too though Sarah Carey had a good piece in the indo last weekend which was surprising as they are always pushing the happy endings stories.

Was disappointed to hear the childrens rapporteur come out and say it was time to legislate because "people are going to do it anyway" .

My feeling is there should be an amnesty of sorts for the children who are here now and in a dodgy legal situation and then a ban. At the end of the day children should not be left in a legal limbo because of the decisions that brought them here. They will have enough to deal with.

@theleafandnotthetree

Some of my 'loveliest' friends are the ones who can't see the problem with surrogacy. They are so busy not being judgemental and wanting everyone to be happy that they can't or won't interrogate what it actually is. I'm afraid being nice and kind doesn't always translate into being smart and questioning. Plus people have an incredible ability to overlook the big picture when something affects them personally or someone they love.

They are so busy not being judgemental and wanting everyone to be happy that they can't or won't interrogate what it actually is.

This is a serious problem that is probably the reason so many women support the sexist, misogynistic ideologies around surrogacy, prostitution and transfenderism.

As well as surrogacy and adoption, gay men who want children could consider co-parenting. This involves forming a platonic relationship with the other parent. I know of a straight single woman and a gay single man who had a baby this way.

@JellySaurus. Totally agree. And if someone is traditioninally discriminated against - e.g. gay men or transpeople - then anything less than giving them everything they want now (and even celebrating it) is seen as whatever-they-are phobic. Being infertile or gay does not give you a pass to override other peoples (and especially other women's) dignity and value. But the 'be kind' crowd can find it hard to wrap their head around that kind of complexity.

[quote whataboutlove]@theleafandnotthetree
@BessieFinknottle

That interesting. I have only seen the the happy stories too though Sarah Carey had a good piece in the indo last weekend which was surprising as they are always pushing the happy endings stories.

Was disappointed to hear the childrens rapporteur come out and say it was time to legislate because "people are going to do it anyway" .

My feeling is there should be an amnesty of sorts for the children who are here now and in a dodgy legal situation and then a ban. At the end of the day children should not be left in a legal limbo because of the decisions that brought them here. They will have enough to deal with.[/quote]
Agree on an amnesty, then an outright ban. This limbo serves nobody. Ireland is a very sentimental country and sadly policy is often determined by who can tell the saddest story to the media.

I don't believe in surrogacy but I think it will go on regardless.

@DidoDino

I don't see the issue of removing a child from its birth mother, when the child will be placed in the care of loving parents

Infants aren't blank slates to be passed around caregivers. Newborns recognise their mother's voices and smell, they have an intimacy of connection that can't be replicated by another parent, no matter how loving. Furthermore, that child will be formed around abandonment. Pre-verbal, un-symbolised abandonment that no amount of love, reassurance, or rationalisation will heal.

Surrogacy creates developmental trauma.

I've read this many times but I don't understand it. When the baby is in the womb they are immersed in fluid so any voice they hear will be distorted and how will they know how their mother smells? They don't breathe in the womb so can't smell anything and when they are born they will smell other people and probably hospital smells as much as their mother.

I've read this many times but I don't understand it. When the baby is in the womb they are immersed in fluid so any voice they hear will be distorted and how will they know how their mother smells? They don't breathe in the womb so can't smell anything and when they are born they will smell other people and probably hospital smells as much as their mother

What a cold way of thinking

I too am worried about the situation in Ireland and would support an amnesty/ban.

The current situation reminds me of the foreign adoption issues that I unfortunately got caught up in in the early 90s. It started off well, with people adopting children from orphanages, but by 1990 in Romania is was a case of selling babies to rich (most Americans) and was completely unethical, subject to a lot of bribery and corruption, and ultimately there is a lot of evidence that the so-called paperwork that came with the babies was falsified, meaning some of the children might well have been stolen and/or there may well have been some "coercion" of young women to have babies to sell.

Unfortunately the compassionate surrogacy of a woman having a child for her sister, or getting pregnant with a gay friend etc now makes up a tiny proportion of surrogacy with the majority being a commercial transaction, so ultimately buying a child.

I also went through IVF, and feel really angry when I see "egg donation" suggested to students as though it involves no more than "sperm donation".

I'm both amazed and horrified at how Ireland can run investigations into mother and baby homes and the forced adoption (and sale) of babies in the past, while simultaneously supporting the current surrogacy arrangements which are similar - poor young women in dormitories giving birth and having their babies taken and given to rich(er) women to raise.

The only difference is the genetic makeup of the babies, though in many cases although there is no genetic link between baby and surrogate mother, there is also no genetic link between baby and commissioning mother

Just as many adopted children and children of sperm donors feel a gap in their lives, we are creating a generation of children who will not know their full genetic or social history.

@Comedycook

I've read this many times but I don't understand it. When the baby is in the womb they are immersed in fluid so any voice they hear will be distorted and how will they know how their mother smells? They don't breathe in the womb so can't smell anything and when they are born they will smell other people and probably hospital smells as much as their mother

What a cold way of thinking

Is it cold to not understand something? Some one is saying something and I don't understand how that works, how will I find out if I don't ask? Or are we not allowed to question what someone asserts as a fact?

Is it cold to not understand something?

You cannot understand how an infant has a bond with its mother?

Have you ever seen an animal give birth?

* I'm both amazed and horrified at how Ireland can run investigations into mother and baby homes and the forced adoption (and sale) of babies in the past, while simultaneously supporting the current surrogacy arrangements which are similar - poor young women in dormitories giving birth and having their babies taken and given to rich(er) women to raise.

I know. It's insane.

The people adopting the babies in the past were heartbroken by infertility too. It is heartbreaking, I can't imagine it which means I'm probably not allowed an opinion.

Is it cold to not understand something?

Do you understand THAT it happens, even if you don't know HOW? The science is clear that outcomes are improved by not cutting the cord early, skin to skin, breastmilk. They prefer their mother's voice. Babies have personalities immediately, just after birth. Studies, not reckons.

@whataboutlove

* I'm both amazed and horrified at how Ireland can run investigations into mother and baby homes and the forced adoption (and sale) of babies in the past, while simultaneously supporting the current surrogacy arrangements which are similar - poor young women in dormitories giving birth and having their babies taken and given to rich(er) women to raise.

I know. It's insane.

The people adopting the babies in the past were heartbroken by infertility too. It is heartbreaking, I can't imagine it which means I'm probably not allowed an opinion.

You are allowed an opinion, the welfare of women and babies is everyone's concern.

@ancientgran

By googling "babies know mothers voice"
I found this

www.babycenter.com/baby/baby-development/baby-sensory-development-hearing_6509

And this

parentingscience.com/how-do-children-respond-to-a-mothers-voice/

And this

www.pnas.org/content/112/10/3152

This will further explain auditory function and differentiation in foetuses awareness of male and female voices as well as explain how babies know their mother's face before they learn others at around 3 months and how they can differentiate between females.

"Researchers have found that babies are able to discriminate between their mother’s odors and odors produced by either unfamiliar lactating females and females who have never given birth. Newborns begin to prefer their mother’s odors, and this familiar scent may even help calm or soothe your infant."

"Studies have shown that by three months of age your baby can discriminate between their mother’s face and the face of a stranger. As with your voices, with more experience your baby will develop a preference for your faces and those around you. "

babyschool.yale.edu/does-my-baby-recognize-me/

You can find more about how a mothers diet affects a baby, such as if she regularly eats spicy food and how that influences their palette as they start eating solids through her breastmilk.

Babies are really quite clever, have you heard about 'breast crawl'? There is much we can learn about pregnancy and what is termed the Fourth Trimester from studies. Google is your friend, you may find the book The Primal Wound interesting as well as John Bowlby's work.

More on The Breast Crawl

I also went through IVF, and feel really angry when I see "egg donation" suggested to students as though it involves no more than "sperm donation"

Thank you for saying this.

They target young woman, 18, 19 years old who have never had children of her own and likely is doing it for quick cash. It's exploitation and manipulation of female socialization. It's also eugenics as, in my country (US), they advertise to young, pretty, college-bound girls. I realized this disturbing marketing when my 15-year-old daughter was looking online at colleges and she was targeted with ads to sell her eggs. 15.

My sister went through IVF with her own eggs, got one baby and said enough. The side effects of egg stimulation and unknown long-term health risks were surprising to her - and she is an educated, experienced woman who was in her 30s and willing to put herself through that. The industry knowingly uses young women's bodies and buys their body parts, advertising to them to do this. Imagine your 15 year old son being advertised to donate his kidney. Oh wait! That wouldn't happen.

Earlier posters said either the surrogate mother is the mother or the egg donor is the mother in cases where a surrogate mother and an egg donor are used. I'd say it's both. A child has a birth mother who carried, nurtured and birthed her. A child also has a genetic mother who looks like her, acts like her, inherits half her DNA and may have shared half-siblings with her. Surrogacy and egg donation exploit women, and as a feminist, I'm opposed. Surrogacy and egg donation do not center a child's needs, and as a mother, I'm opposed. Adoption is a way to find a family for a child who can not be raised by their biological parents and most adoptive parents are counseled to help their child with both issues of origin and separation. Surrogacy and egg donation exploit origin and separation.